legalize "computer crime"

Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:47 pm

Hacking, port scanning etc should be legalized, in my opinion.

1) people do it anyway, but it limits victims from fighting back when hacked, instead they need to go the legal route which is long, wastes both victim and goverment resources. If someone defaces my site for example, I could just hack them back and it would be quicker, and more effective.

2) It can be uses positively, for fighting spammers for example, or attacking and deleting child pornography sites etc...

3)It's a good way to get educated about networks (software/server level)

So I find hacking and what not should be legalized for these reasons and more that I might have forgotten or did not think of.

Oh and by hacker I'm referring to network hacking/defacing sites etc not the real term hacking which could be as broad as simply programming.

Of course, if someone hacks into a site and steals credit card numbers, then this is stealing, and the fact that he used a network to get those numbers is irrevelent to the fact that he got the credit card numbers and will do fraud with them, so in that case the network logs and what not would serve as evidence of him commitie fraud the same way blood on a floor would be evidence of a non-network crime. The hacking part would not be illegal, only the fact that the person did fraud.

But if someone defaces a site, it should not be illegal. It should be up to ISPs to decide, so if an ISP does not tollerate that, then people who deface a site would be terminated and what not, but it would not be up to the goverment/authorities. While we're in the age of freedom of information and legalizing random things, I think this should seriously be one of the things to legalize, and it's not against the Bible, or any other religion. "Thou shalt not unauthorisely show thy presence upon thy neighbor's network"

Discuss.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:18 pm

Something important I forgot to mention, it does not really apply to Canada but mostly the states. The goverment uses computer crime against it's citizens, so to me it should be legal and they should have the right to fight back.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:02 am

What about the Biblical command to turn the other cheek? Just because someone does something to us, like send spam, does not mean we should seek revenge. Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, I will repay.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:07 am

Yeah true... *considers closing DoS attack consoles* Making my net slow anyway.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:36 am

Man, Red, you are a weird kid. So people should have every right to get into other people's networks and nose around with impunity?

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:39 pm

Sure why not, it's up to people to keep secure.

And if someone does get in, well it gives the right to fight back. Figured if they're legalizing pot and gays might as well keep this trend going! Might as well legalize guns too... though that's pushing the evelope.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:04 pm

Stasi wrote: Man, Red, you are a weird kid.

Ya think???

Red Squirrel wrote: Sure why not, it's up to people to keep secure. And if someone does get in, well it gives the right to fight back. Figured if they're legalizing pot and gays might as well keep this trend going! Might as well legalize guns too... though that's pushing the evelope.

Life according to Red...

Legalizing pot - "So what?"

Legalizing "gays" - "I don't really care anymore."

Legalizing guns - "That's pushing the envelope."

"Come on guys! Breaking into someone's personal computer isn't nearly as bad as smoking pot or being gay! Legalize it!!!"

Biases never cease to amaze me.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:09 pm

I'm only for legalizing pot for medical reasons. But it should not be allowed on the streets and the original bill they were going to pass (honestly not sure what even happen to that issue I think they just let it die) would disallow trafficing of it I think.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:12 pm

"Come on guys! Breaking into someone's personal computer isn't nearly as bad as smoking pot or being gay! Legalize it!!!"

Obviously smoking pot and being gay is worse, common. Obviously if you're hacking into the pentagon to launch missles it's a different story, but I'm talking about hacking to cause no damage. Gain access as root, then log off, type of deal.

I forgot to mention the educational aspect of it. Hacking is a great way to learn about networks and stuff.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:25 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: I forgot to mention the educational aspect of it. Hacking is a great way to learn about networks and stuff.

C'mon Redster, sure it's fine to do if it's on a computer the 'attacker' owns or has permission to attack, but why should people have a right to invade others' privacy as you suggest?

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:32 pm

Being gay
Affects: Only yourself/partner, or people who stick their nose in other peoples business.
Smoking marijuna
Affects: Only yourself.

Hacking someones PC
Affects: hackie - violates their property.

An intelligent person can educate themselves within any given subject, that is no basis to legalize things.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:07 pm

Gaymess affects familes, so does pot.

BTW I was being sorcastic about the legalizing computer hacking, but it just comes to show you how people who want to legalize some of the most sinful and most filthy and humanly disgraceful things such as gayness and redefining marriage, but yet are against legalizing less serious issues. kind of makes ya wonder where this world is going.

"Hacking is ok of course, but only the goverment and RIAA should do it."

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:39 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: Gaymess affects familes, so does pot.

GayMess?

Gayness, if you want to look at it thru your Prophetic Glasses O' Doom, at worst affects families on a personal level.

Hacking can ruin businesses. When businesses are ruined, the people they employed are out of work. When they are out of work, it affects their families too, wouldn't you say?

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:53 pm

Well if a business goes bankrupt over a hack it simply reviels that they are not responsible.

I would never put my money into any company, knowing that some simple hack can't be dealt with quickly enough, and that they have the ability to go out of business over it. I stand amazed at sites that get hacked and stay in that state for hours. If someone hacked into my site or business network, it would immediatly be put offline and fixed ASAP then put back online as if nothing happened. And those who don't do backups deserve to get hacked anyway. Even in a world without hackers, you must do backups at least once a week and have a fully up to date copy of the site itself on at least 2 seperate physical storage devices and the database/dynamic data backups should be put on those 2 devices as well.

But hackers should be stopped before they do damage anyway. Especially the legal ones like the RIAA since they do the most damage. That's why if it's illegal to hack, it should be illegal for everybody.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:40 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: Gaymess affects familes, so does pot.

Hey Redman, if I were gay, tell me how it would effect my family.

Also, if I smoked pot

, tell me how it would effect my family.

Red Squirrel wrote: BTW I was being sorcastic about the legalizing computer hacking

1) people do it anyway, but it limits victims from fighting back when hacked, instead they need to go the legal route which is long, wastes both victim and goverment resources. If someone defaces my site for example, I could just hack them back and it would be quicker, and more effective.

2) It can be uses positively, for fighting spammers for example, or attacking and deleting child pornography sites etc...

3)It's a good way to get educated about networks (software/server level)

So I find hacking and what not should be legalized for these reasons and more that I might have forgotten or did not think of.

Oh and by hacker I'm referring to network hacking/defacing sites etc not the real term hacking which could be as broad as simply programming.

Of course, if someone hacks into a site and steals credit card numbers, then this is stealing, and the fact that he used a network to get those numbers is irrevelent to the fact that he got the credit card numbers and will do fraud with them, so in that case the network logs and what not would serve as evidence of him commitie fraud the same way blood on a floor would be evidence of a non-network crime. The hacking part would not be illegal, only the fact that the person did fraud.

But if someone defaces a site, it should not be illegal. It should be up to ISPs to decide, so if an ISP does not tollerate that, then people who deface a site would be terminated and what not, but it would not be up to the goverment/authorities. While we're in the age of freedom of information and legalizing random things, I think this should seriously be one of the things to legalize, and it's not against the Bible, or any other religion.

Yeah, you sure sound like you were being sarcastic.

No Red, I don't buy for a minute that you were being sarcastic there. Maybe now you're telling yourself you were, but you weren't. And I think your biggest justification is as you just said, "They don't tell you not to do it in the Bible, so why can't we?"

just comes to show you how people who want to legalize some of the most sinful and most filthy and humanly disgraceful things such as gayness and redefining marriage, but yet are against legalizing less serious issues.

Just goes to show you how f-ed up the religious right can be...

"Invading someone's personal right to privacy is okay, especially since it's something I enjoy and am capable of doing, but since I've been brought up to believe that pot is evil and that gay people are filthy, sinful, humanly disgraceful creatures, they should still be illegal and punished severly."

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:50 pm

I was sorcastic from the start. Of course I would not be against legalizing it, but it's not really something I'd push hard on. I just think it's rediculous how people see this as the most evil thing ever, but overlook the things that are really evil. In the states hacking is taken more seriously then murder I find that just crazy. Remember that case with the FBI raid over some source code? Like common it's rediculous.

But I think if they want to keep it illegal which is probably best, it should not be legal for the goverment, and it should not be taken as seriously as it is. It's not so bad here in Canada but the states... I'm just so glad I don't live in the states, where at any given time any goverment agency can hack into your computer, crack your encrypted communication chanel, and other stuff, and you can't do nada about it.

At this very moment, the packets sent in order for this post to take place is most likely going through the goverment before it reaches it's destination. Especially if I trigger the system with keywords such as weapons of mass destruction.

And unless your entire family is gay, I'm sure if you turned gay or/and got addicted to drugs it would make a big impact on your family. Common think about it. Any common sense family should be concerned about other family members and their health.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:21 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: And unless your entire family is gay, I'm sure if you turned gay or/and got addicted to drugs it would make a big impact on your family. Common think about it. Any common sense family should be concerned about other family members and their health.

Ahh, you're twisting/manipulating the subject matter. If my family is concerned about my health, that's one thing. If they are concerned about me being gay, that is another thing. They are two different things. Just because I'm gay, doesn't automatically make me "unhealthy." It just means I have a different set of health-related concerns. On the other hand, drug addiction does often, correlate to health related problems. Drug use however, does not. Nonetheless, if you're arguing against the legalization of pot on the grounds that it's unhealthy, you're arguing to outlaw an awful lot more than just pot, buddy. Your argument claims that gayness and pot are worse than computer hacking because they effect families. When asked how they effect families you respond with they effect one's health. Are you going to start arguing that we should out-law things based on the fact that they effect a person's health? By your logic, not only should we be out-lawing pot and homos, but cigarettes, alcohol, fast food, as well as being a couch potatoe. Being a couch potatoe is unhealthy isn't it? How many heart attacks do you think are caused by McDonalds every year Red? Do Big Macs "affect families" too? Is a Big Mac really worse than invading someone's right to privacy Red?

Maybe us yankees just value our privacy that much more than you canucks?

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:14 pm

+1

Yeah lets not forget that "ageing" is also a major health concern. Let's outlaw it.

Things to lake illegal

Soda (Caffine)
Coffee (Caffine)
Cigarettes (need i say more)
Pot (bad for lungs) (note: pot is allready illegal)
Homosexuality(bad for

?j/k/Wrath of God)
Gymnastics (bad for joints)
Pre Marital Sex (STDs/Wrath of God)
Alcohol (liver failure)
Drugs (death) (note: durgs are allready illegal)
Space Travel (irradiation/Wrath of Kahn)
Fast food (Heart Attacks)
Headphones (hearing loss)

ext.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:33 pm

I had just used affect famillies and health as examples. There are MANY other factors involved why both should not be legalized.

I don't see the big deal with privacy, I mean if someone was capable of getting on my network it's not like I have gay porn or anything to hide. But firstly in any circumstance a computer network should be secured, anyway. So legal or not hacking should not be something that affects anyone as much as drugs, gays, murder etc. Gays also tend to be sexual predators, though it's not always the case so I can't stereotype. Either way they're gross and I keep my distance.

BTW I would not see anything wrong with illegalizing alcohol and cigarettes, they're as bad as pot, if worse.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:39 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: I don't see the big deal with privacy....

Exactly, which is why I hope you never achieve any position of power over anyone else.

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:39 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: I had just used affect famillies and health as examples. There are MANY other factors involved why both should not be legalized.

Give some examples of why gay marriage shouldn't be legalized without mentioning the following: god, sin, sinners, sinnerer, sinnerest, bible, holy book, holy bible, "Holy Bible, Batman!", rapture, rift, devil, hell, heck, h e double hockey sticks, families

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:42 pm

As for pot, isn't it safer than cigarrettes?

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:45 pm

sintekk wrote: As for pot, isn't it safer than cigarrettes?

Sintekkticle, he'll just say it's immoral since it'll make you more likely to fornicate... or something.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:50 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: I had just used affect famillies and health as examples. There are MANY other factors involved why both should not be legalized.

By all means Red, let's hear 'em.

(edited to include sintekk's thoughtful requisit of "without mentioning the following: god, sin, sinners, sinnerer, sinnerest, bible, holy book, holy bible, "Holy Bible, Batman!", rapture, rift, devil, hell, heck, h e double hockey sticks, families

")

Red Squirrel wrote: I don't see the big deal with privacy, I mean if someone was capable of getting on my network it's not like I have gay porn or anything to hide. But firstly in any circumstance a computer network should be secured, anyway. So legal or not hacking should not be something that affects anyone as much as drugs, gays, murder etc.

Oh, well if it shouldn't ever happen then I guess there's no need to make it illegal huh?

Do you actually think about this stuff before you type it?

Red Squirrel wrote: Gays also tend to be sexual predators, though it's not always the case so I can't stereotype.

Classic, I was wondering how long it would take for something like that to find it's way to your monitor. Gays tend to be sexual preditors? No. Sexual preditors tend to be sexual preditors.

The majority of sexual preditors tend to be middle to upper aged caucasian males... Should we out-law them?

Your thinking is so flawed it's unreal. Did you even notice that you lumped "being gay" and "drugs" into the same category as "murder?" Probably not, you probably don't see the difference either, eh? They're all three unhealthy right?

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:56 pm

I put off responding knowing shenbaw would know just how to say it.

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