Linux is starting to scare me...

Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:19 pm

Ok this is weird... I bought a UPS for my redhat server. It was too good of a price, and it's a 500va and I know it's more dangeraus for linux to have a unclean shutdown because of the way the file system works, so I don't want to take chances of data being corrupted.

The first thing I noticed one it's all plugged (no monitor) is that when the ups is unpluged, the server reboots. WTF?! There's no communication whatsoever with the UPS and the server, how can anything trigger it to shut down?! Thing is, I KNOW there's enough power, because the ups would beep saying it's overloated, and the PC would not boot back up. The pr oblem is that it shuts down so bruskly chances are if it h appends too often it will fubar the hard drive since it does not let it enough time to park the head properly, it just shuts right off then back on.

I also have a windows machine connected to it, but it does not affect it in any way. But why does it reboot the linux one like that? When it does not reboot, I still hear a click sound in the server and the cd-rom drive light does go on and off as if it just turned on... so somehow something is telling linux to shut down, and sometimes it works, sometimes it does not... but I want to turn that "feature" off. Especially if it's going to be an unclean shut down like that.

Any suggestions? I'm runing linux red hat 8.0

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Magic · Post by **Magic** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:42 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: Ok this is weird... I bought a UPS for my redhat server. It was too good of a price, and it's a 500va and I know it's more dangeraus for linux to have a unclean shutdown because of the way the file system works

Really? I thought it was just the opposite.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:50 pm

Not sure but I'm pretty sure I heard it's more dangeraus, because the way the journaling works, it constantly keeps the drive defragmented in the background so if the power goes off while it's doing that you can corrupt data. I might be wrong but I remember hearing this somewhere.

With windows, the only major problem with a bad shut down is that you can't defrag after unless you run scandisk. At least in my experience, and that old clunker PC we had was unplugged about 15 times a day because of freezing.

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Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:32 pm

Well I don't know what you have plugged into it, but if it is signaling that it is overloaded it will never work properly. Doesn't have anything to do with linux, it has everything to do with a cheap power back up that can't handle the load.

You did install the software for it right?

My machines run fine and the included software works flawlessly.

BY the way, I don't know what file system you chose, but if its ext3, or rieserfs then improper shutdowns shouldn't do damage. They are journaling file systems.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:44 pm

Well the psu was cheap in price but it's still apretty high quality by my standards... I have 350va up here and it's great and that one is a 500va. It's a APC office one. It can handle the load since it does not beep or anything. It only has two machines on it (no monitor). But after troubleshooting wether it was network related or not it seems even if the win2k machine which has the bull dog software is turned off, or that I unplug the cable it still does it. Someone at another forum told me it's because the server is more sensible and can't handle the dive when the ups switches over to battery... but is there a way I can make it handle it? install better capacitor? I can't really spend any money here... my mom freaked out over the ups which costed only 70 buck. (it would normally be over 100 if I would buy it in store)

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wldkos · Post by **wldkos** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:33 pm

red, did you install the software correctly? Did you mention what brand it was? Did you check the vendors site to see if they support *nix drivers for the ups?

Linux isn't scaring you; you trying to do things that are much differently handled across different OS's with the same mentality as thinking your still in windows is the scary part.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:12 am

The software is not installed on the linux machine, nor is it connected to the ups with the serial cable, that should not matter. the software only supports windows.

I think it's more of an environment problem, maybe the switch is causing some kind of magnetic field which messes with the mobo or something I really can't figure it out. The serial cable is connected to the win2k machine which takes care of sending a broadcast message to itself and my PC upstairs.

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Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:47 am

APC does in fact support linux and my two APC units cane with power chute for linux. SuSE comes with its own utility for using an APC power backup.

Point is it doesn't have anything to do with linux it is a hardware issue. If the unit could handle the laod it would, it is that simple.

I just went through the same exact think with one for a customer. The monitor was overloading it. Unplugging the monitor and only plugging the PC into it, solved the problem.

You can get the APC powerchute for linux here.
http://www.apcc.com/products/management/pcp_linux.cfm

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wldkos · Post by **wldkos** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:16 am

Red Squirrel wrote: The software is not installed on the linux machine, nor is it connected to the ups with the serial cable, that should not matter. the software only supports windows.

I think it's more of an environment problem, maybe the switch is causing some kind of magnetic field which messes with the mobo or something I really can't figure it out. The serial cable is connected to the win2k machine which takes care of sending a broadcast message to itself and my PC upstairs.

wait.... you didn't install the software on the linux machine and it's not plugged into the linux machine and your wondering why it didn't work? Or are you saying the linux machine shuts off when you test the battery backup? err, i went through the same thing where the battery backup software didn't work with linux for me, but the computer would stay running till the battery went dead. Bruce has it set up where the software will shut down the computer safely when it gets too low on the battery, hence why you should install the software.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:07 am

Exactly, but it should not reboot, the computer has know way of knowing that it's connected to a backup, as long as it's receiving power (which it is). so that's why I don't understand. The software does not have to be installed for a UPS to work. The software is just a convinience in order to be able to shut down the machine by itself, but it's much much easier to just do that with windows which the software takes a second to install and it's working. The issue is not overload, I've put way more then that on my 350va ups and it took it fine (2 PCs and a monitor, and small items such as clock) and this UPS is bigger and only has two machines, and I tried it with only the server and it still does it. And the machine still works fine after, it's just that it reboots when the ups switches over. so it definatly is hardware, just not sure what. I'm thinking it may be the psu...

I've worked with small and huge UPSes and never seen this happen before. Well the bigger ones use deep cycle battery banks and constantly runs on the battery so they're better in that sense.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:34 am

This is really fucked up. I closed F@H from the server, and now instead of the server rebooting it's the other machine. WTF. I KNOW the ups can take it, because once it reboots, it works after and runs for a while before it says battery low. Anyone know anything about capacitors? I think I'll just wire up a capacitor bank so it can stop it from rebooting like that, since somewhere there must be a spike that causes it. And it was my mistake it's actually a belkin home office UPS not an APC.

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage...oduct_Id=123006
This is the one. As you can see I got a pretty good deal for 70 because I got it wholesale. (this is a US site so if I bought this in a store here it would be over 100). So it's not a low quality UPS. Unless I got a defective one.

But the easiest way is to just go with a capacitor bank.

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wldkos · Post by **wldkos** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:46 pm

are you trying to make your setup have your linux machine reboot after a power outage or something like that? If so, you need the software to be running on the machine, otherwise, how would the machine know to reboot again, even if that is possible. Just take a breather red and try what we say instead of wiring a

capacitator.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:55 pm

Oposite, I don't want it to reboot but it does, I just want it to stay on like a ups is suppost to make a comptuer do. rebooting is pointless and bad for the sytstem (it does a bad reboot). Might as well just plug it directly in the socket and pray for lightning.

It seems to be intermittent and also doing it to the other machine at times. I think it's the UPS that does not trip fast enough, but why?! I paid 70 bucks, it's over 100 retail, it should work like it's suppost to.

We hardly ever get power outages here, but sometimes there's flickers durring storms so I want the PCs to stay on instead of shut down over a 5 second flicker. But my plain ain't working since the PCs just reboot for no reason.

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Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:21 pm

Call APC tech support line, like I did. They will ask what you have plugged itno it, you tell them, and they will tell you you have too much plugged into it.

I know this is a difficult test, but just for shits and giggles, turn off and unplug one of the computers then test the UPS. It will work.

I know this is a realllllyyyyyyyy hard concept for you to grasp, but the operating system has nothing to do with it. It is a "hardware" issue.

Second point, what good is a power backup, without software, are you sitting in front of the computer 24 hours a day seven days a week? If you are not then a battery backup is useless, no software, the battery just runs down, then the machine goes down hard. Might as well have nothing at all.]

Buy a quality UPS or unplug some of the hardware form it, it simply can't handle the load. The software will tell you what kind of load is on it, if it's more then 40% then unplug something.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:04 pm

I realized it was hardware problem in my third post, I know it's hardware now, just what?

I can only plug the serial cable in one PC at a time, so to make my life easier, I chose the windows machine. But if the power goes off I just remotely shut down the server from upstairs anyway. I have the windows machine set to shut down the ups after 5 minutes, even though it can go on for 28, since from doing some reasearch even the highest quality deep cycle batteries should not be left discharged to more th en 50% capacity, so just to make it last longer I have it set to shut off after 5 minutes.

I will test the total wattage consumption used by the win2k machine the server and as well as the router, but I can't see it surpassing 300watts since my monitor upstairs is about 200 watts and I have the PC and the monitor on the UPS and it takes it fine, and it's only a 350va so I assume it's like 200-250 watts. But I want to test wattage for myself since maybe it is overload, but still, why would it reboot? It would just overheat or not work. I overloaded my small ups before and that's basically what happened, the equipment was not functioning right and it was making it beep so I unplugged something and it was fine.

But I did try to unplug the windows machine but same thing. But like Imentioned earlyer it's intermittent, and it seems to do it more when both machines are at full load (server running F@H and windows running UD)

If worse comes to worse I'll keep the windows machine unplugged from the ups and I might even see if I can figure out how to get linux to work with the serial cable. But autoshutdown is not my priority, my priority is to have about 5 minutes of stable operation so I can manually shut down. But this would happen maybe once a year, the rest of "outages" are flickers that are so fast some clocks don't even reset. These are rare too. I have to say our power company is pretty reliable, but it's never bad to be safe anyway.

I just thought of something right now, unlike a power outage, when I unplug the UPS it is no longer grounded because the grounding pin is unplugged too... so could that be the problem?

I have some stuff to do but after I'll go test the total wattage usage, and also contact Belkin tech support if they have a 1-800 number. I think it's the relay switch that's just toast and I'll have to rma it.

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Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:47 pm

Install the bulldog software from the CD, you set one PC to be master and the other connects to it through your network, when there is a power outage the master PC shuts them both down.

Soory about linking to APC software, If I had known you had a Belkin, I would have told you their software is fantastic and comes on the CD.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:53 pm

I thought it was apc but I went to double check and it was in fact belkin. That's the thing with wholesale suppliers though, you don't know what you're getting until it arrives. It just says "UPS - 70$" and you hope for the best.

I did not know about the possibility of doing this over network to shut both off, but before I do that I still need to fix the reboot problem since the software won't kick in otherwise. I'm a little chicken about putting my 100$ volt meter in such voltage but I'm going to go test the wattage out and get it over with and hopefully I'll do it correctly and not blow the voltmeter. It can handle 600VAC so I think I'm just being paranoid. It has a warrenty anyway...

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Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:35 pm

The screenshot I posted is the software that comes on the belkin CD.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:17 pm

Mine is not that advanced it just tells me if it's online or offline, and has a option to set the time and actions. What's nice is that there's an option to run a program so once I get this working I'll just write a pearl script on my server so that I can run the script from windows, easier then trying to install stuff on the server. In fact I don't even think I have to use pearl just a straight trough console script put in cgi-bin should work. Not something I'd do on a public server though. "everytime googlebot is on the server shuts down"

Anyway, I tested the load and I'm only using 265watts out of 300. borderline, but not over, and by shutting off one of the machines it still did it before so load is not what's causing it.

Oh and I was amazed to found out our house only has 117 volts when most appliances are rated for 120 or 125, so could this cause any problems?

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Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:42 pm

Unless you are transporting the electricity magically through the air when you unplug the power cord of the battery backup, then I fail to see how the voltage of the wall outlet could affect it.

265 out of 300 is wayyy to much load, it will never function properly. It is shutting down because as soon as you unplug it, you are draining the battery dead immediately.

It was not designed for that kind of load.

You can ignore what I am telling you, it really doesn't matter to me, it ain't my computer.

Last words on the subject, if you want a door stop, a brick is cheaper then killing computer equipment. Good Night.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:01 pm

But that's the part I don't get, why does it just reboot then go back on and stay on for like 5 minutes? (I stopped it after that, it would of kept going for a bit) That's the part I don't understand. If I drained the battery, it would just shut off completly, no?

And like I mentioned it does it even when there's only one machine (no monitor). So the "overload" might be playing a role in this, but it's obviously a bigger problem making it reboot. I plugged the machines in a power bar and plugged the power bar in the UPS and it seems to have helped a bit. I unplugged it a few times and it did not do it. But it's so intermittent it's hard to tell if that fixed it or not. If worse comes to worse I'll just let the win2k machine go down hard and only have the server and router hooked up. (the router uses 8 watts so don't say that's the problem

)

If worse comes to worse I'll look into capacitors. I just need to research on the safest way to hook them up and how uF ratings work etc...

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wldkos · Post by **wldkos** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:32 am

Did you call belkin or check their website for support?

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:04 pm

Turns out it was the grounding problem, by unplugging it there's no ground so it acts weird, but I tested by shutting off the breaker and it worked like a charm. Tested it 3 times at load of 265 watts. Later on I'll want to know how to configure it to shut down but the server and the workstation but for now I'll just make it shut off the workstation, and the ups will shut off also according to the settings. (it's not good to deep cycle vrla batteries, or any batteries for that matter)

But 5 minutes gives me plenty of time to remotely shut down both machines and mine after. (I have a ups upstairs for my machine and it has the monitor hooked up too)

hmm just for fun I should measure how much watts my machine upstairs uses. I'm probably overloading this ups like crazy since I have all those cold cathode lights, and the monitor alone probably uses at least 200 watts. It's a lower end UPS. 350va so not sure how many watts that is.

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