Are mages underpowered?

[Red Squirrel]

Ok, I want everyone's opinions on this. I *could* change it back and remove the .3 if they really are underpowered. I realize how dexxers have it made because there are more artifacts and some are rather powerful. Theres actually a few weapons that tbh I regret adding in, but now that they're in, I don't want to remove them as I have to think about the ones who use them, as well.

The problem I have with removing the .3 is the spam and ping issue. With no cap, it's just a ping+script vs ping+script issue. Who has the lowest ping and best scripts/macros wins. Though I can take the script part out of the picture and still, it's ping vs ping.

I suck at playing a mage, I made one and I totally suck. Before the nerf, on the test shard before AoV went live, I was kicking everyone's ass with my mage, just because I had like 16ms ping as the server was in my basement. I just don't think it's right for a template to be ping dependant to that extent. Mages are all about timing so can't remove the ping factor completely, but I think the .3 at least helps "cap" low ping.

Also there's other options, instead of removing the .3 I can maybe increase the SDI cap or something. Theres other options so lets hear em.

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[Lymus]

0.25, please.

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[Red Squirrel]

lol don't think that would make a difference, think a more serious change may be needed.

Actually another option is capping FCR and not FC.

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[dprantl]

Well, I tried to PvP a bit with my mage a while back. It was simply a no-win situation back then since an archer would just continually mortal me so I couldn't cast heal and inbetween the mortals he just did AI's. My only chance to win would be to parablow or disarm, but unfortunately my template didn't have any HCI and he had 45 DCI so I was pretty much SOL.

Removing the 0.3 second cast cap would definitely have helped. A higher SDI cap would have helped too. But I seem to remember that you modified HCI/DCI to favor HCI more. If you put that back to the way it was, that would probably help the most IMO.

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[Nosferatu]

honestlly the only way a dexxer has beat me is mortal.. so if mortal was healable none of that would be a problem period

i know this will never happen but its a suggestion.. well also im lieing someone with serpents arrow and 1.5 ssi kinda owned me but i got him afterwards..

idk i feel a lil underpowered but who knows what will happen.

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[DOCTOR THUNDER]

that was serp arrow, 15ssi, and 20% fireball. lol I know its a shitty bow.

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[Nosferatu]

no i meant u were capped full on the ssi with stam per shot

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[Red Squirrel]

Thats another thing I've thought of, is capping SSI. Not the property itself but how much the base speed can be influenced by. I have not looked at what the speed actually indicates so I'd have to look at how all that works, and how the final speed is calculated, and go from there. Though a good mage can easily quickly reduce a dexxer's swing speed, and can't forget about disarm spamming.

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[Death]

Mortal strike is the dexxer version of disarm. Mages will constantly disarm dexxers and righteously piss them off. Dexxers will constantly mortal mages so they can't heal and righteously piss them off. Why do we do these special shots? Mages disarm so they dexxers can't freaking hit them and they can nail them with a nice combo. Dexxers mortal the mages so they quit that darn in mani spamming. If one special shot gets a nerf, the other one will need to get an equal nerf. As for the mage casting speed, I would bring it back down to the norm or put in even a "slight" delay. If things don't straighten out, think of a new way to fix it. My philosphy is if you add a nerf to a character of skill, add something beneficial. For example, if you nerf the in mani spell, at least allow the mage to run while casting it. If you nerf dexxer speed, give them a better chance to hit their target or increase the damage.

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[fuzzy]

in my eyes here is waht i veiw... lymus did tyhe math in another post but here is what i think...

dexxers are over powerful... but yet again if u have the ping and the skill for a mage, u can win easily... ill put my self as an example... when i played i just started a mage and i do well with one. aqnd i kill the ppl alot easier then i do on my dexxer.... my point... its kinda even if u know what ur doing then its ok, if u go in not knowing how to play a mage or a dexxer then its different... ive killed hector, nish, burnus, red, doc, reco on my mage...

dexxers are ALOT harder to get to learn hwo to use good... if u dont belive it then ur dumb... 1 week on a mage it took me, 1 year on a dexxer... do the math.... some say u just gota run and follow, its not jsut that. if ur a pally u gota know when to use ur heals, how to fit a suit with 40 lmc, mr and di and such like that.

in my eyes... make the spell casting to .2 for mages and keep the .3 for pallys.

and if u only play a mage/dexxer try making the other build, see hwo u do. maybe its even just gota learn hwo to do shit...

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[Death]

in my eyes here is waht i veiw... lymus did tyhe math in another post but here is what i think...

dexxers are over powerful... but yet again if u have the ping and the skill for a mage, u can win easily... ill put my self as an example... when i played i just started a mage and i do well with one. aqnd i kill the ppl alot easier then i do on my dexxer.... my point... its kinda even if u know what ur doing then its ok, if u go in not knowing how to play a mage or a dexxer then its different... ive killed hector, nish, burnus, red, doc, reco on my mage...

dexxers are ALOT harder to get to learn hwo to use good... if u dont belive it then ur dumb... 1 week on a mage it took me, 1 year on a dexxer... do the math.... some say u just gota run and follow, its not jsut that. if ur a pally u gota know when to use ur heals, how to fit a suit with 40 lmc, mr and di and such like that.

in my eyes... make the spell casting to .2 for mages and keep the .3 for pallys.

and if u only play a mage/dexxer try making the other build, see hwo u do. maybe its even just gota learn hwo to do shit...

This post is a winner. Well said. I still think the cast speed should be brought down a smiggen though (And I don't play a mage).

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[fuzzy]

exactly, i know ur a good dexxer, so if u play a mage u can probley be really good at it, try it, its fun acctually cuz there is alot u can do with it... heal faster .... but every one needs to try both sides of the story before they start bitchen about it... dexxers are hard to play as well

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[Red Squirrel]

Yeah only thing that would make a dexxer easier is less ping based as you keep attacking at same rate all the time, but most dexxers have a complimantery skill like necro, chiv, bushido, ninjitsu or combinations so its more then just double click and hit. You also have limited mana to play with so you can't go spamming stuff as easily.

But yeah chances are I will be removing the .3 cap as that is really the only major mage change, the rest does not directly affect mages. The only thing in mani spamming is rediculus so I may simply fix that somehow but that is a big part of a mage's healing so don't want to nerf that and be back to square one either.

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[Gaiava Arkkaza]

Ryan, you was pwning everyone cause of two reasons:
Everyone else pinged over 600.
You was pinging 0-15.

Ill agree with fuzzy, dexxers are hard to play sometimes, but mages are just way harder, specially in the heal part, if you dont time your heal right, you ARE dead, simply cause you cant move and this gives time for the warrior to come and hit you.
Also, dexxers complainted about DCI before. Meh, bullshit. It was 50% chance to hit and evade against someone with 120 skill and 45 DCI while having 120 weapon skill and 45 HCI. That change was probably enforced cause of personal frustration, not overall analyse.
Bartok, mortal compared to disarm? lol If you RELY on a weapon to fight, I can understand, but them, what I can say is: Learn how to build a template that can do stuff without using a weapon.
But necro fighters complaining about that, meh. You can easily get 2/6 here and spam pain spike for example.

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[Gaiava Arkkaza]

Now regards changes:

Removing the 0.3 wont do anything. I tested on my shard, It will only affect people pinging SUPER low, which is definately not the case of most people here.
Double the amount a mage heals per spell.
SDI is not an issue either. If a good mage gets a combo in, no one survives. Just ask fuzzy about my combos later and ask if he actually managed to survive any.

The main issue is: DEXXERS ARE DOING WAY TOO MUCH DAMAGE IN SO LITTLE TIME! While they can even block your healing. I mean... :/

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[Red Squirrel]

Yeah I knew thats why I pwned people, was just saying, its not right that a template is based purely on ping. If I would of got on my dexxer against another dexxer it would have been an equal fight regardless of ping, in most cases.

Also the DCI/HCI issue HAD to be changed. It's not really right that a fully artied up dexxer with max HCI still can't hit worth crap. Really think that change was the only thing that was needed to balance it out though so if I remove the .3 everything will be standard exept for the extra 20% or so to hit. This increase is really more noticable in pvm then pvp though but it is present in pvp. Need at least GM skill for it to take affect. Lack of food will actually penalize you as well, so food is a vital part of pvp.


The .3 removal will mostly make it harder to get fizzled, but yeah it will only do a difference for someone with less then 30 ping, since it will take 30ms to send a packet anyway so the timer is over by then so you can cast another spell.

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[Death]

Yeah I knew thats why I pwned people, was just saying, its not right that a template is based purely on ping. If I would of got on my dexxer against another dexxer it would have been an equal fight regardless of ping, in most cases.

Also the DCI/HCI issue HAD to be changed. It's not really right that a fully artied up dexxer with max HCI still can't hit worth crap. Really think that change was the only thing that was needed to balance it out though so if I remove the .3 everything will be standard exept for the extra 20% or so to hit. This increase is really more noticable in pvm then pvp though but it is present in pvp. Need at least GM skill for it to take affect. Lack of food will actually penalize you as well, so food is a vital part of pvp.


The .3 removal will mostly make it harder to get fizzled, but yeah it will only do a difference for someone with less then 30 ping, since it will take 30ms to send a packet anyway so the timer is over by then so you can cast another spell.

Sounds like a plan. A few weapons may need to be relooked as well.

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[dprantl]

Also the DCI/HCI issue HAD to be changed. It's not really right that a fully artied up dexxer with max HCI still can't hit worth crap.

Ok, so can you explain how it is now? Was it 50% chance to hit with 120 + 45 DCI vs 120 + 45 HCI before?

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[Gaiava Arkkaza]

Still, by OSI standards:

Fully geared arty dexxer with:
max SSI
45 HCI
45 DCI
120 weapon skill

against

Fully geared mage with:
30 dex, absolutely NO ssi.
45 HCI
45 DCI
120 weapon skill

Chance to hit: 50%
Chance to evade: 50%

As far for PVM, If you miss often while having 45 HCI and at least 110 weapon skill, I have no idea whats going on, but thats JUST NOT POSSIBLE.
However, a dexxer will do WAY more damage per hit, WAY faster and CAN move while attacking. A mage will have to cast a spell, wait for it to be casted, target, and still have to time combos and such. If you cant target cause the guy keeps moving, use razor. This goes both ends.

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[Death]

Still, by OSI standards:

Fully geared arty dexxer with:
max SSI
45 HCI
45 DCI
120 weapon skill

against

Fully geared mage with:
30 dex, absolutely NO ssi.
45 HCI
45 DCI
120 weapon skill

Chance to hit: 50%
Chance to evade: 50%

As far for PVM, If you miss often while having 45 HCI and at least 110 weapon skill, I have no idea whats going on, but thats JUST NOT POSSIBLE.
However, a dexxer will do WAY more damage per hit, WAY faster and CAN move while attacking. A mage will have to cast a spell, wait for it to be casted, target, and still have to time combos and such. If you cant target cause the guy keeps moving, use razor. This goes both ends.

Yes but remember that mage spells are long range and will always hit their target. Melee requires the person to be next to their target and they are required to hit. This is the reason why a dexxer should be able to do more damage when they land a hit. However, if a mage lands a combo when the dexxer is either defenseless or they are farther away, the mage will also do a good chunk of damage. So that being said, each class has its own little perks and downfalls.

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[Red Squirrel]

Also the DCI/HCI issue HAD to be changed. It's not really right that a fully artied up dexxer with max HCI still can't hit worth crap.

Ok, so can you explain how it is now? Was it 50% chance to hit with 120 + 45 DCI vs 120 + 45 HCI before?

Now it'is 15% + an additional 10% if you're full or a deducted 10% if you're starving. This is the code:

Code: Select all

			if(atkValue>=100)chance +=0.15; //hit chance bonus - cuz the standard hit chance simply sucks!
			if ((!(defender is PlayerMobile)) && (atkValue>=100)) chance+= 0.25; //bigger pvm bonus

			
			
			double hungerbonus =  (-10 + ((double)attacker.Hunger))/100; //hunger under 5 gives penalty, above 5 gives bonus
			chance += hungerbonus;	
			
			if(chance>0.95)chance=0.95; //have at least a 5% chance to miss		
			if(chance<0.05)chance=0.05; //have at least a 5% chance to hit			

Also added at least 5% chance to hit/miss.

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[Gaiava Arkkaza]

You can disturb a mage's spell, but you cant disturb a dexxer's swing. Disarm might solve this, but not all mages can do that. And anyways, whats the matter about long range spells? Most dexxers run till the end of the world the second you disarm them.

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[Death]

You can disturb a mage's spell, but you cant disturb a dexxer's swing. Disarm might solve this, but not all mages can do that. And anyways, whats the matter about long range spells? Most dexxers run till the end of the world the second you disarm them.

You can disturb a dexxer's swing, it's called disarm. Also, mages have that lovely spell called protection to allow them to cast through spells at the sacrifice of losing fc. Now I know mages will say "Nobody ever uses protection" but it's still an option. Also, most dot spells aren't fast enough to successfully disrupt a 2/6 mage with low level spells such as poisons, harm, magic arrow and heal. Those cast very quickly and can stack up to quite a sum of damage. Mages may get disrupted sometimes, but you would require constant hitting as well as the dot spell (Or 2 stacked together) to be able to break through the speed of the low level spells. Also, remember that a single disarm is capable of leaving a dexxer completely vulnerable to a mage's comboes for a good 5 seconds. With the neverending mana pool of a mage with wrestling, they can easily and frequently disarm their opponents with a high rate of success.

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[Gaiava Arkkaza]

My wrestle mage is always out of mana, since I cant use bleed or anything on him, therefore Ill be ALWAYS casting large scale spells. And I'm also using low end spells just because I cant cast large ones (cause dexxers always hit me, even with max dci).
Now if you play a dexxer, and has the right weapon (Rat did this with me ALOT), he will just bleed every possible time, its redicolous fast and does decent damage. Most of my spells are disturbed by that, so he will have time to rearm again.
I tried dexxers and mages, I suck at dexxers cause they are way too much reliant on their weapons and hit chance, while you can still do stuff with mages.
And protection is not an option really. Why no one uses it? Cause you can barely do stuff with it. Its like a melee warrior unable to move.
Disarm is still HCI reliant as well, and its way easier to get DCI on a dexxer then on a mage.

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[E.Machine]

I really don't want to read EVERY post on this thread, but here's my two sense.

I don't play a pvp dexxer. I never have, and I never will. I did create that 4/6 chiv, but he quickly turned into a pvm character, as I can not control him as well as a mage. I have always loved playing mages much more.

ANYWAYS...

I find that they are relatively equal. In duels, I don't think dexxers stand a chance. Especially against my mage. They mortal, I just heal with Spirit Speak. I disarm them, if I cast my spells properly, they're done for.

Field PvP is a bit different. This is where I think its closer to equal, but still leaning on the mages side. If you run down a dexxers health, he can run away, and if I chase him, I still have to cast spells, and by the time I'm finished casting a couple, he's long gone and usually fully healed again. So in that time I pretty much prep an Explo, and get a FS ready for when I see him coming, and hope I can pull off a disarm, pain spike, but usually, only to see him run again.

Some of you people are probably thinking "A lot of this isn't true... Eby isn't that tough to beat." You're right, I'm not. However, A LOT of the time, I'm playing 3D, and I can barely do anything in 3D, I just love the look of it. So if you think you're having an easy time with me, that is honestly the reason. lol.

As for HCI/DCI. I USED to have 30 HCI, and 45 DCI. I would get hit EVERY SINGLE FRIGGEN TIME as a 120 Wrestle mage. So I took off my robe because of how it looked, changed around some of my jewels and armor, and am now at 15 DCI, and 23 HCI. And I notice absolutely no difference.


Personally, I don't think they are completely underpowered, but the .3 casting, does make a different in field pvp, but not so much in duels.

I <3 Mages.

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