AWs vs 5-Slot Dragons

[Death]

As some of you may know, OSI introduced 5-slot dragons. Also known as "Greater Dragons", these look exactly like normal dragons, except are way more powerful. OSI describes them as being slightly under the damage of ancient wyrms.

We were planning on adding these but the only reason we didn't was due to the fact that AWs were already tameable. However, AW's have been through so many changes that there's no hard/set stats on an AW. Some people have 3 slot versions, some have versions with higher resists, some have them with higher skills. This makes it difficult for us to edit because some AWs are either too weak or too powerful than they should be. When we try to balance them out, it does not work because there's so many varieties out there that are different. Also, with a recent change in non-tamed ancient wyrm stats (OSI changed their HP), the stats would vary again.

So instead of nuking all pre-patch or old AW's to get them all to match, we are thinking of replacing them with 5-slot "Greater" dragons. For those who are a bit worried, let me shed a bit of insight on the talked about changes:

- Greater Dragons will spawn along with normal dragons. There's no real way of knowing if a dragon is a regular or greater by appearance (Similar to mongbats and strong mongbats). You will know by fighting or taming. These will spawn wherever there's regular dragons (Whether it will also spawn in Rikktor's champ, we would have to test out).

- Greater Dragons will require high taming of course. The exact value will be researched and adjusted accordingly but will almost certainly require more than GM taming.

- For those who already have bonded AW's, you will be given opportunities in game to sacrifice your AW for a special bonding deed that can be used instantly on a freshly tamed greater dragon to bond it. Because you already worked to bond your AWs, we don't believe on having to redo the process of bonding as you're pretty much transferring over to the new pet.

- Although we rarely use 1 source of information for monster stats, here's an estimate of stats:

http://www.uoguide.com/Greater_Dragon

Although I believe OSI does not have stat reduction on these dragons, the AOV versions WILL have stat reduction. This is due to the fact that creature AI is more advanced in dealing with spell comboes, melee and healing (Pets keep this AI once tamed). Also, having a pet with 1900 hp is overkill. Their HP will match the amount of slots they take. What this means is if a cu-sidhe takes 4 slots and is about 500-600 hp, the greater dragons will be above this amount, possibly in the 600 - 800hp range depending on the original min/max of the non-tamed versions.

- When we create a prototype of these dragons, we will invite players and the devs to help test them out to see if they need to be reduced or increased.

- Tameable great dragons will have 2 bodies: The red and the brown ones. Stats are the same, just the bodies are different.

If we do go over to the new system, AWs would eventually be phased out. Although it would take many months to do, players would have enough time to sacrifice their existing AWs for the bonding deeds.

I have created a poll for the players. Feel free to re-read this post or make comments/address concerns before voting.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20834

[d.]

I think we need 2 get rid of ancient wyrms, and go with something more consistent like greater dragons. However, I hate that they look exactly like normal dragons, I think special hues or different bodies would be great to tell them apart without having to lore them.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20836

[dprantl]

I don't quite understand the reasoning behind the stat loss. Yes, the AI is enhanced here. But... the AI is enhanced here. What I mean is that the pet's AI is better, but so are the mobs. Since pets are used mostly for PvM anyway, it should cancel itself out. Or are you worried about PvP, because I doubt that a 5-slot dragon with 2k HP will be a threat to a suited PvP'er.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20837

[Death]

I think we need 2 get rid of ancient wyrms, and go with something more consistent like greater dragons. However, I hate that they look exactly like normal dragons, I think special hues or different bodies would be great to tell them apart without having to lore them.

The normal bodies are the same because they are like regular dragons except stronger versions of them. Normal dragons don't have special hues so the greater ones don't either. I want to avoid special hues in the case of these dragons as there's already pets with special hues and there may be different types of dragons in the future (Blood wyrm/sand wyrm reintroduction) that are differentiated by hue. This also puts emphasis on using taming skills and other ways of identifying.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20840

[jrhather]

I don't see why they should get a stat nerf.
HP, yes. 2k hp is tough even for a DEMITEL to chew through. But not str, dex, int.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20841

[Death]

I don't quite understand the reasoning behind the stat loss. Yes, the AI is enhanced here. But... the AI is enhanced here. What I mean is that the pet's AI is better, but so are the mobs. Since pets are used mostly for PvM anyway, it should cancel itself out. Or are you worried about PvP, because I doubt that a 5-slot dragon with 2k HP will be a threat to a suited PvP'er.

As you mentioned previously, the PVP aspect is definitely one of the aspects we consider. These dragons (If left with their original HP), can fireball you for a good 90 damage and melee you for 50 (On a full 70's suit). Mix that with the fact that the tamer can also be a mage or other class capable of damage, that gets to be pretty nasty. For those who have fought AWs recently, think of fighting that + a pk (and it's the same person). Although I'm not saying it's a guaranteed issue, it could be a problem in the future that would have to be nerfed (and believe me, we hate nerfing stuff as much as the players hate getting a nerf).

Speaking of nerfs, 5-Slot dragons are new on OSI and for people who know OSI, they have a tendency of nerfing stuff several months later. Look at bushido's evasion and nerve strike (Or ninjitsu's ki-arrow and bows). When they find a fault in some systems that gives too much advantage, they nerf (Which is needed to retain balance). Now, it's still too early into the introduction of 5-slot dragons on OSI to anticipate a nerf, but it's still a very real possibility. The beauty part of adding a stat loss (besides the fact that pets will not be too powerful), if OSI DOES decide to nerf them down, the stat loss on AOV already has them brought down to a reasonable amount so we would not have to follow suit in nerfing them.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20842

[Death]

I don't see why they should get a stat nerf.
HP, yes. 2k hp is tough even for a DEMITEL to chew through. But not str, dex, int.

For strength, dex and int, they may or may not receive a stat loss (Whether they do or don't is subject to testing once a prototype is made). The loss is primarily focused on the hp.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20846

[jrhather]

I don't see why they should get a stat nerf.
HP, yes. 2k hp is tough even for a DEMITEL to chew through. But not str, dex, int.

For strength, dex and int, they may or may not receive a stat loss (Whether they do or don't is subject to testing once a prototype is made). The loss is primarily focused on the hp.

Whats that saying about great minds? :p

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20849

[Death]

Whats that saying about great minds? :p

Just saying that depending on the stats we choose, stat loss may or may not be necessary . I'm throwing hypotheticals out there as I wouldn't want to mislead anyone into believing that it's a definite yes or no.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20850

[Shaggy]

A few questions that came to mind...

Will they have inscription like the AW's?

Will they give a higher artifact chance?

Will they give more leather?

If at a Rikky, will killing them make the spawn go faster or the same as killing an easier normal dragon?

Is there any way to make them identifiable? - If I am hunting on a pvm char I'd hate to run in and tank one thinking its an easy target and then get my ass handed back to me minus some insurance.

Thats all I can think of for now, I'll be back with more questions as I think of them.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20857

[Death]

Will they have inscription like the AW's?

Initially, they do not have any inscription bonus in the non-tameable form. Whether they receive this bonus is based on their damage, their range of skills and how they perform during testing. Because they are matched with regular dragons, we will be keeping their abilities as similar as possible (Think of these dragons as a regular dragon but a lot more beefy).

Will they give a greater artifact chance?

Yes. Because they are similar to aws and a lot more powerful, they will be getting a loot bump over regular dragons as well as a fame bump (And with a fame bump means a greater AOA chance). Although they will probably be slightly less than an AW, they will still be worth killing. Off the top of my head, think of a % in between shadow wyrms and ancient wyrms.

Will they give more leather?

Yes. They give more leather and likely more scales. It won't be doubled, but will be a fair % over regular dragons.

If at a Rikky, will killing them make the spawn go faster or the same as killing an easier normal dragon?

No. All spawns are created equal in a champion system and progress the same way. However, if it is done in a rikki spawn, there's a % chance that a dragon will be a "greater" dragon (Like normal spawns for taming). So you could be doing a rikki and maybe only encounter 10 of these out of 60 dragons (Estimate. The % chance would depend on how often we choose to have them spawn as "greater" dragons). We are still unsure if we want to add those into the rikktor spawn. If we did, the percent chance would have to be low, but at the same time it should not jeoprodize the chance of getting one to tame.

Is there any way to make them identifiable? - If I am hunting on a pvm char I'd hate to run in and tank one thinking its an easy target and then get my ass handed back to me minus some insurance.

That's what makes them kind of a surprise. Back in the old days of ultima, dragons were ferocious and feared next to balrons. On OSI, they do not spawn with special tags to differentiate. You are required to lore them or find out by their attacks. I kind of like the emphasis on using animal lore in a unique way but we may be nice and change the name tag so that you don't get mislead into battling something you expect you'll be able to tank.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20860

[jrhather]

A few questions that came to mind...

Will they have inscription like the AW's? Would be nice...

Will they give a higher artifact chance? Would be nice...

Will they give more leather? Would be nice...scales too I hope

If at a Rikky, will killing them make the spawn go faster or the same as killing an easier normal dragon? I hope not...the longer the spawn,t he more arty chances

Is there any way to make them identifiable? - If I am hunting on a pvm char I'd hate to run in and tank one thinking its an easy target and then get my ass handed back to me minus some insurance. I hope not...thats the fun in PvM

Thats all I can think of for now, I'll be back with more questions as I think of them.

Edit...damn customers! Death got to it before I could.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20862

[Red Squirrel]

In fact I foresee OSI nerfing those dragons eventually, I heard stories of people doing dread horn WAY too easily with them. So we'll just do the smart thing and do it in advance. IMO 1k hp is WAY too high for a pet.

Bosses are suppost to be a challenge. Even with the current AWs its basically "all kill" then go watch TV. It's too easy.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20863

[dprantl]

In fact I foresee OSI nerfing those dragons eventually, I heard stories of people doing dread horn WAY too easily with them. So we'll just do the smart thing and do it in advance. IMO 1k hp is WAY too high for a pet.

Bosses are suppost to be a challenge. Even with the current AWs its basically "all kill" then go watch TV. It's too easy.

Yeah but come on, if the Dreadhorn here was like it is on OSI, I could solo it in 10 minutes. The Dreadhorn's AI here is vastly more difficult than OSI.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20865

[Death]

To be fair, there are some peerless that are meant for certain classes (Like melisande with pets and not being nice to dexxers). Dreadhorn seems to be one of them too. Parox is not meant for pets or archers for example, but is best with a dexxer.

Like weapons, there's a line that has to be drawn on properties and stats for pets. HP is the biggest concern next to resists. So far, the most balanced pets I have seen that are in the high end line are cu-sidhes and reptalons. They are powerful and good, but still retain their balance.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20866

[Red Squirrel]

In fact I foresee OSI nerfing those dragons eventually, I heard stories of people doing dread horn WAY too easily with them. So we'll just do the smart thing and do it in advance. IMO 1k hp is WAY too high for a pet.

Bosses are suppost to be a challenge. Even with the current AWs its basically "all kill" then go watch TV. It's too easy.

Yeah but come on, if the Dreadhorn here was like it is on OSI, I could solo it in 10 minutes. The Dreadhorn's AI here is vastly more difficult than OSI.

from what I've heard it takes a good hour at least to do dreadhorn. The "super ubber" people may be able to have special tricks to do it super fast but in average it takes a very long time.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20868

[Death]

from what I've heard it takes a good hour at least to do dreadhorn. The "super ubber" people may be able to have special tricks to do it super fast but in average it takes a very long time.

There's more damage constraints on OSI then there are here. Such as exceptions to damage (Like talismans only working on melee) and the fact that items/artifacts aren't as uber as they are here. Barding is also a lot harder to do on OSI and I believe that it received quite a generous nerf on bosses or difficult to bard monsters. OSI has a bunch of new, inexperienced players who add to the mix of not knowing how to do a peerless effectively and the whole no-res room adds to the flavor of difficulty. You remember how your first peerless was, long and arduous. When you do the peerless after many times, it gets easier.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20869

[dprantl]

from what I've heard it takes a good hour at least to do dreadhorn. The "super ubber" people may be able to have special tricks to do it super fast but in average it takes a very long time.

There's more damage constraints on OSI then there are here. Such as exceptions to damage (Like talismans only working on melee) and the fact that items/artifacts aren't as uber as they are here. Barding is also a lot harder to do on OSI and I believe that it received quite a generous nerf on bosses or difficult to bard monsters. OSI has a bunch of new, inexperienced players who add to the mix of not knowing how to do a peerless effectively and the whole no-res room adds to the flavor of difficulty. You remember how your first peerless was, long and arduous. When you do the peerless after many times, it gets easier.

I disagree. OSI does not have a PvM SDI cap. Double-slayers no longer apply for magery here and I hit the PvM SDI cap with just a slayer spellbook and my suit's SDI. I could probably hit for higher damage on my mage on OSI. I've seen talk of people with over 90 SDI on OSI. Same with my archer, a slayer bow and maxed DI brings me to the damage cap so wearing a slayer talisman on top of that does nothing.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20870

[Red Squirrel]

And that's why there is caps If people could hit 200-300+ damage per hit it would be completely unfair for "normal" people who hit 100ish per hit with slayers and maxed out suits. The line has to be drawn somewhere. We are often forced to make bosses harder because of the fact that it's possible to hit so high but that makes it unfair for the ones that hit what is to be considered normal damage. So the caps help balance that out a bit.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20873

[beewaqii]

I dont care if it is an AW or a Greater Dragon.
All i like doing is gathering resources and PvM. NAturally the rewards of both these activities are higher in Fel, so I would like a mob that will protect me from the pesky PKs (who in the most part are quite honorable).

My tamer is 115/115 and I will never do a champ spawn becasue I am to unco for it and it isnt one of my preferred activities, so I would prefer if 115/115 is what is needed for control of these.

Also, just because OSI may nerf something in a few months isnt sufficient reason to nerf it on here, now.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20874

[beewaqii]

Like weapons, there's a line that has to be drawn on properties and stats for pets. HP is the biggest concern next to resists. So far, the most balanced pets I have seen that are in the high end line are cu-sidhes and reptalons. They are powerful and good, but still retain their balance.

Yup, Cus are kewl, I love my Cu!!

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20875

[Death]

Also, just because OSI may nerf something in a few months isnt sufficient reason to nerf it on here, now.

We don't always follow suit on OSI nerfs because for some of them they are realllly really stupid.

The nerfs OSI do get right that affect gameplay by shifting balance, we also fix (Ki-arrows for those who know about that, is a fantastic example of this).

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20876

[Red Squirrel]

we also have a decent track record for nerfing stuff that we know will be problematic, only to find out OSI nerfs it later for same reason.

ex:

- Ecru citrine ring
- Enhance potions
- hits/stam/mana regen (well we actually did it after OSI but we were planning to cap it - OSIs idea was better)
- IDOC house place block

Probably more I can't think of.

Sometimes I think OSI reads our updates, and if in fact they do I take honor. Now if they could call me up so I can code UO full time.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20877

[Death]

we also have a decent track record for nerfing stuff that we know will be problematic, only to find out OSI nerfs it later for same reason.

ex:

- Ecru citrine ring
- Enhance potions
- hits/stam/mana regen (well we actually did it after OSI but we were planning to cap it - OSIs idea was better)
- IDOC house place block

Probably more I can't think of.

Sometimes I think OSI reads our updates, and if in fact they do I take honor. Now if they could call me up so I can code UO full time.

The 5 slot dragons were introduced mysteriously after a few months of us having AWs :

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20878

[beewaqii]

Sometimes I think OSI reads our updates, and if in fact they do I take honor. Now if they could call me up so I can code UO full time.

OSI would do well to read, and implement, our updates

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3274, old post ID:20884