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DOCTOR THUNDER wrote:let me have a few more beers and I will try for spot #1. Death is at an advantage because he is argueing with a sober Doc Thunder.
lol i had a feeling the playing field was uneven.
has death become the roger clemens of aov!!
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:16959
DOCTOR THUNDER wrote:let me have a few more beers and I will try for spot #1. Death is at an advantage because he is argueing with a sober Doc Thunder.
lol i had a feeling the playing field was uneven.
has death become the roger clemens of aov!!
No, I'm the Chuck Norris of aov. I roundhouse kick this thread into Paroxysmus' lair (j/k).
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:16960
So to take it back to my point couterpoint illustration:
Point: With Submersia, Ingots/Reasources will lose all value Counter-Point: There is a basic value you must spend to obtain, and therefor a low end to what you can charge and make any money. The people that could sell for less are miners, and therefor they could easily undercut a Submersian broker. (By a substantial amount if they chose too)
Point: Bod Quests could become to easy to do, and therefor flood the market with runics and destroy their value. Counterpoint A: Your own system works to prevent this, most runics have less charges than other shards, you must sink ingots in to get runics. This system could also be revised to take into account that there could be an actual market for reasources. Counterpoint B: Ingots have a gold value, gold does take time to get (unless you are lucky enough to win a Jackpot, in which case this is a good gold sink). In spite of claims otherwise, unless the prices were modified to be lower the base intrinsic value of ingots from submersia will not change. This means it is a Stable source of reasources, albeit unlimited, according to actual studies of economics, a stable source of a reasource will actually stablize an economy not destroy it.
Point: It is actually faster to aquire these reasources than afk gathering. Counter-Point: Unlike AFK gathering, Submersia sinks gold for ingots. This combats inflation by decreasing the currency in circulation. Gold also requires time to gather, which is not time spent AFK, this means that these reasources while taking little time to actually purchase, do take time to aquire. Also add in the time and or effort required to obtain an Oracle.
Point: Restock times. These were also not supposed to be instant to make up for the fact that the vendors would sell items cheap and items that cannot be bought anywhere else. However, because they are instant you can just sit around and run a buy macro. If you have enough gold, imagine how far you can take it. Counter-Point A: Again, This is a Gold Sink, there is a limit to how much gold can be earned and how fast, and once excess gold in circulation is sunk (Via this method or another) any "Frenzy of buying would die down, and the market would sail on an even keel, as long as the prices they are available to the public are not changed. Counter-Point B: Currently you cannot sit AFK and run macros to gather these reasources off vendors even it instantly restocked. Razor does not recognize the difference between colored ingot, hides, or boards.
Point: Bags of sending. These were never supposed to be allowed use in Submersia City. Conceeded: Increasing the time it takes to gather these reasources is not a horrible Idea, but not actually neccasary if you follow the concepts of economics I have explained thus far.
Point: Why make a miner, lumberjack, etc if I can make a fisherman, collect fabled nets or do some crazy trades for an oracle of poseidon that pretty much acts as an unlimited store for resources? Counter-Point: Because obtaining the Oracle of Posiden takes alot of time and effort, either to get one from leviathan or to aquire the items needed to trade for it. You can not like you can make a fisherman and get an oracle the next day and have unlimited reasources. It takes time to fish up fabled nets, and unless your extremely lucky, it takes many many levithan fights in order to get one. And then once you do all that, the reasources still cost gold, which while easy to get, does take time to gather.
More in depth explantion:
Red, Val ingots will never drop that low. The reason being, they cost far more than that at Submersia. It is against the laws of economy for the selling price to drop BELOW the basic value used to obtain the item.
Also, miners are not "Held by the Balls" by this. Even with an oracle it takes a certain amount of money to acquire the goods. This means there is a lower end to what they will sell for. This is the basic intrinsic value of the goods by the person obtaining them from submersia. Now, we take that amount and then the person will not sell them for less, and will most likely sell them for a profit. Therefor increasing the price yet again. Now, a miner can get the same goods for less start up capital, but more time invested.
So like many things in reality its a trade off between Startup capital, and Time. The more time you are willign to invest the less gold you need up front.
So in other words, a miner can make more gold off of the same goods, at the expernse of more time invested. A merchant buying from submersia and selling for a profit will actually make less gold off the same goods, but spend less time doing it.
The Submersian vendor actually has the added bonus to the AoV economy of being a gold sink. a large portion of his prices actually Sink the gold, which in turn combats inflation by lessening the amount of gold on the shard.
Now about the Runics. Here is where your good design of the system actually acts as a defense as what you just claimed would happen. Runics flooding the market. In your system, you must sink in ingots to gain the bod quest rewards. If there ever becomes a crisis of too many runics or them being too easy to obtain, then that could be modified to take more ingots to get the same rewards. I am not saying that it is needed, I'm saying this is one other way to affect the change (and if the market for ingots and gold here is balanced compared to other shards that have stable economys, but it causes there to be too may runics, then perhaps it is the runic system that needs the change, not the market.)
Also in your system as a build in defense against there being too many runics around you made it so that most have less charges. So your clever design already has defenses against this occuring.
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Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:16971
Alright, perhaps we can make a compromise. We want to prevent a market flood, you want to gather and sell mass ingots. I think there might be a happy medium around here somewhere. The gold sink is a rather valid point.
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:16975
Thank you for conceeding that the gold sink is a valid point.
I admit, yes, I want to make some money off of it all. But I also honestly do not belive it is so much a crisis that it needs drastic changes (I don't honestly think it was a crisis like it was treated as).
I will conceed that flooding the market with incredably cheap goods is a bad Idea, but the prices really are not cheap, I mean after a mark up to make a profit on it, the prices come out to be very similar to shards with very stable economys where players there are trying to make a decent living too.
Honestly, if people had thrown millions into these reasources over night, it would drastically sink a very sizable portion of the gold on the shard. I've purposely not been releasing my profit margin, because its not good buisness sense to do so, but a sizable portion of the price is how much it takes to buy the items, then I need to make back the net value of what i used to get the Oracl, IE recoup my startup capital.
And once all that gold was sunk fromt he intial feeding frenzy, sales would calm down to a steady amount based on how much gold was earned on the shard with a percentage going into reasources. And while this would change the market for somethings, there is no real evidence that this wouldnt be stable.
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:16977
Well as for myself, when I had millions in the bank its because i got lucky and one 3 10 mil JPs in about 3 days (I spent most of it very quickly, Infact i spent like 9 mil at the first auction, as much blow it on something outside a player as anything), Currently, in personal funds I probably have maybe only 5 mil or so (I am holding a fair bit more in trust for my guild as guild funds, which is actually who the reasource vendor was going to be, I was just running it in trust for JLA as a whole, with the funds going into the guild account.).
I think the large string of IDOCs recently was another huge cause of the excess in gold we see around right now.
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:16978
Well, the jack pots are why some people have extremely silly amounts of gold, and other people has very little. I'm sure if you asked a newer player they wouldnt tell you its extremely easy to get gold here. I mean other than jack pots I think champs are the next fastest way to get gold (Not including trades with other players, I mean as in spawning the gold).
Ok, so Coon is one of the fastest/easiest champs (Arguments can be made a few others, but for the sake fo the example we will use coon).
I can solo a coon in about 20-45 mins using three clients (If uninterrupted and I dont by some freak chance have all my char's die). Thats 400k-900k an hour (usually about 600k/hour for me which falls in squarely in the middle) Lets say I can champ 2 hours a day for 7 days. Thats 8.4 Mil in a week. Now, that is still even a gross overstating of what I can earn because usually most people run a champ with at least 1 other person, so that splits the number in two if they share. Plus very few people champ for 2 hours stright, not to mention i didnt add in the time it takes to pick up and BOS that gold out which prolly adds 5-10 mins to each champ (Prolly less if more people).
Ok, so without JPs in the mix a dedicated player can earn 2-5 mil a week minus insurance costs.
Now, while doing those champs, with about 2 hours of champing with 3 clients, I pull about 5 AoAs a day, thats 35 Spins right there, then add in all the power scrolls, and it wont be too long until I win that jackpot given those odds you just listed.
I'm not saying that Jackpots should be removed altogether, but maybe having 10 mil jackpots in there is excessive. I mean by odds in one month if someone ran 5 champs a day with a protector they woudl make 10.5 Mil off the champs and get 1680 scrolls. Which by the odds means they would win 1-2 Jackpots.
I'm also not saying everyone can do this or it takes exactly 1 month to bank that much gold, just that it can be done that fast. And unlike other shards you generally dont do champs in large groups here, which means the rewards are split less ways. This doesn't mean its a bad thing, it just means AoV is different. But as far as I can see, thats how people have so much money. Its easy to make a ton champing, its even easier when you are almsot garunteed to get a jackpot if you run enough champs to earn gold.
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:16982
back last year I used to do 2 or 3 baracoons every morning, I used to put all the 110s and 115s in the new player boxes. If I would have kept all the scrolls for roulette(it wasn't even in the game yet), holy shit... I would be a rich mofo. On a side note, I would like to know how much gold has fallen into that lake down there.
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:16984
all i have to say, also makes me look like i somehow knew this was going to happen, but infact i was going to do this exact thing myself but as i was on sort of break i didnt
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:16985
Plastic Man wrote: I'm sure if you asked a newer player they wouldnt tell you its extremely easy to get gold here.
Coming from OSI I can easy say it is 10x harder to get mass gold here than OSI. I mean, I can amass 1-2M a day EASY (with little to no effort) on OSI whereas here I still have < 300k
Just a point...
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:17025
I have no idea what that guy is talking about because on OSI its much harder to get gold than here, here u can do uncontested champ spawns all day long and rack in hundreds of thousands of gold if you wanted to while osi they have ghost cams watching spawns and only other way to get money is to hunt whihc is mad boring and takes hours to farm gold
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:17029
Nosferatu wrote:I have no idea what that guy is talking about because on OSI its much harder to get gold than here, here u can do uncontested champ spawns all day long and rack in hundreds of thousands of gold if you wanted to while osi they have ghost cams watching spawns and only other way to get money is to hunt whihc is mad boring and takes hours to farm gold
Well considering when I left the game I had over 1billion in gold and didn't work very hard for it, I would say it was easy.
Of course everyone defines easy differently. Plus it depends on if you were one of the ones running the ghost cams ..
You can get gold in so many different ways. I mean just look at heartwood...
To each his own, but I found it MUCH easier to get gold on OSI.
But alas, I left OSI because everyone was gold hungry. I am here to "play". Long as I have enough gold to play like I want, it doesn't really matter to me...
Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:2645, old post ID:17033
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