Provocation and Mob AI (not Armor Ignore) ..

[Minky]

I enjoy the heightened intelligence of the critters throughout Valor, however one thing that doesn't make sense is why the mobs run away to heal when incited through provocation.

I believe that is one thing that should be changed, if they're not smart enough to go after the guy with the lute, and are prone to Bardic skills, the Bardic Skills should override systems in place.

This is only an annoyance when both mobs whack each other down enough to kick-in the run-away script.

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[Red Squirrel]

Hmm I see what you mean, I'll see if I can figure something out for that.

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[Death]

I enjoy the heightened intelligence of the critters throughout Valor, however one thing that doesn't make sense is why the mobs run away to heal when incited through provocation.

I believe that is one thing that should be changed, if they're not smart enough to go after the guy with the lute, and are prone to Bardic skills, the Bardic Skills should override systems in place.

This is only an annoyance when both mobs whack each other down enough to kick-in the run-away script.

Oh right. The ai normally knows to run and heal, making provocation only half useful as they'd run off when they're low on health. We can add in a check that keeps them angry and fighting if they're provoked. After all provocation makes them want to rip each other's heads off, not cower near the end and heal up.

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[DOCTOR THUNDER]

on a side note, I hear monsters casting heal as soon as they target me.

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[Death]

on a side note, I hear monsters casting heal as soon as they target me.

lol foreshadowing .

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[Minky]

Okay, the first part was fixed, but a new thing has shown:

With Target-Switching, Provoke is still half-broken (target-switching is great, it keeps the bards/tamers/mages on their toes). But, every so often (more often than not), the mobs will target-switch onto me, I throw up another Provoke expecting them to stop targeting me and to re-target their new aggressor, but they continue to chase me, while still giving the 'looks furious' message, and the other mob chasing them. At this point, a new Peace will not 'reset' the aggressor list, and it's essentially a wasted charge due to the other mob whacking it and waking it up immediately.

It looks like an unholy love-train really. I'm all for the target-switching, but is there anyway that a second provoke will switch the target-switcher back onto the target-switchee? I like it, it makes Provoking into a mini-game, and actually makes you be aware/use instrument charges. It makes Barding interactive instead of fire-n-forget of the old days.

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[Death]

Okay, the first part was fixed, but a new thing has shown:

With Target-Switching, Provoke is still half-broken (target-switching is great, it keeps the bards/tamers/mages on their toes). But, every so often (more often than not), the mobs will target-switch onto me, I throw up another Provoke expecting them to stop targeting me and to re-target their new aggressor, but they continue to chase me, while still giving the 'looks furious' message, and the other mob chasing them. At this point, a new Peace will not 'reset' the aggressor list, and it's essentially a wasted charge due to the other mob whacking it and waking it up immediately.

It looks like an unholy love-train really. I'm all for the target-switching, but is there anyway that a second provoke will switch the target-switcher back onto the target-switchee? I like it, it makes Provoking into a mini-game, and actually makes you be aware/use instrument charges. It makes Barding interactive instead of fire-n-forget of the old days.

Ah right that does not make sense. We'll add in a flag to make sure that they aren't making a beeline for the bard while provoked or something.

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[jrhather]

That whole run away to heal thing never made sense to me either. I don't understand why the already dead do the same thing. Zombies, skeletons etc shouldn't be concerned with dying. Liches I can understand, they WANTED to be undead, same thing with vampires or skeletal dragons (lich dragon). But ghouls, wights, spectres, wraiths, skeltons, zombies, rotting corpses, hellsteeds, etc should all be mindless undead that attack without a sense of self preservation!!

Amirite?

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[Death]

That whole run away to heal thing never made sense to me either. I don't understand why the already dead do the same thing. Zombies, skeletons etc shouldn't be concerned with dying. Liches I can understand, they WANTED to be undead, same thing with vampires or skeletal dragons (lich dragon). But ghouls, wights, spectres, wraiths, skeltons, zombies, rotting corpses, hellsteeds, etc should all be mindless undead that attack without a sense of self preservation!!

Amirite?

You're right in that sense. Zombies and skeletons and lesser undead shouldn't run away when they're about to be destroyed. That's just kind of something that existed for every creature as per OSI's design. However, on AOV we coded in a flag that overrides that so even when creatures are half health, they don't bugger off and they keep on fighting (Peerless bosses have this).

We could look into adding that flag in for undead creatures as it makes more sense according to their lore. Undead creatures are mindless reanimates who would keep battling no matter what happens (Zombies on fire.....they just keep going).

You are also correct about lich as that was the path they chose and are not mindless undead creatures and are very much in control of their magical capacity and minds.

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[Minky]

Ah right that does not make sense. We'll add in a flag to make sure that they aren't making a beeline for the bard while provoked or something.

Not necessarily, the re-targeting is cool. I like that Bard skills break every so often, or time-out, that makes the bard require input. Perhaps keep the same system as-is, just make a new Bard skill override the current command.

IE - 3 Mobs all provoked, a>b>c (A onto B onto C).
Have provoke break as it does, and C starts darting for the bard with A and B trailing behind still targetting C. Re-provoking C should clear his current command, and cause him to retarget his target. The same with Peacemaking, have his aggressor be the target that is currently whacking him.

With the way AOS changed the game, there is very little a Bard can do with his skills alone, he requires another skill for the killing blow. That's where the target-switching is good. It's also good that the 50/50 Bards (Provoke/Music [Young]s) no longer exist due to the difficulty system, but instead have to utilize their entire 700/720 skill points to be effective. (same with Tamers here, I like that you must focus on the pets - kudos to you, Death, and to Squirrely, the coding masters)

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[Death]

To be fair, barding does not work the way it's supposed to. Runuo made a simplistic formula that hasn't been changed for quite some time (Bad idea as OSI has changed barding quite a bit during the last few years).

We will eventually replace that generic formula with barding difficulty overrides which will allow us to be more flexible in determining barding difficulty for each monster. Right now it's really hit and miss because of the formula. Many creatures are too easy to bard, some are too hard because the formula handles all monsters according to their fame which is never accurate.

But that idea you posted could work and could be something we incorporate into barding when the difficulty calculator is fixed up.

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[Minky]

Yay. One thing to keep in mind, once your skills are at the determined difficulty level to successfully bard a critter, then Barding is simple and easy. Y'all already have the answer to that, re-targeting.

When y'all do go back and eventually re-code it, don't make it ungodly difficult to Bard, otherwise Barding (outside of Discordance) will go the way of Taste ID. The difficulty system is perfect, the 160s, even with a GM instrument (+10% success), with discord going on them, and all 120 skills, you still only have a 55% (or 60%) chance to be successful. With the above, but a slayer instrument, the chance rises to 70%, but that instrument can work against you negatively as well, if you're in an area with mobs that don't fall under that group of the slayer you have.

Also, the way OSI's system works, if you are 25% below the target, you will fail every barding attempt, if you are 25% above the target, it is a guaranteed success. This makes sense, it functions the same as the other skills. While OSI's system may be simplistic, keep in mind that they have the basis for a superb foundation.

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[Death]

Yay. One thing to keep in mind, once your skills are at the determined difficulty level to successfully bard a critter, then Barding is simple and easy. Y'all already have the answer to that, re-targeting.

When y'all do go back and eventually re-code it, don't make it ungodly difficult to Bard, otherwise Barding (outside of Discordance) will go the way of Taste ID. The difficulty system is perfect, the 160s, even with a GM instrument (+10% success), with discord going on them, and all 120 skills, you still only have a 55% (or 60%) chance to be successful. With the above, but a slayer instrument, the chance rises to 70%, but that instrument can work against you negatively as well, if you're in an area with mobs that don't fall under that group of the slayer you have.

Also, the way OSI's system works, if you are 25% below the target, you will fail every barding attempt, if you are 25% above the target, it is a guaranteed success. This makes sense, it functions the same as the other skills. While OSI's system may be simplistic, keep in mind that they have the basis for a superb foundation.

That is exactly how the new formula will work. This is beneficial because we can re-enable monsters like the named spiders to follow this system so if you're in the weald, you CAN peace them or maybe even provoke them, if you have enough skill and possibly a spider/arachnid slaying instrument depending on said monster's barding difficulty.

For bosses, they will likely also follow suit with the 160 skill requirement which might make it difficult to bard but we'll see if it's a logical step to keep the difficulty that high when we get to that bridge.

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[Minky]

Is that to hint that current unbardables will be bardable?

Like all the mechanical assemblies that came with LBR, right now you cannot even use them as a target's target. I agree to an extent, I shouldn't be able to make a machine attack something else, but I should be able to make an organism attack a machine mindlessly.

I do like that certain mobs are unbardable, that keeps the bard population in-check, but with the AOS system a Samurai or Necromancer can decimate an area quicker than a Bard can get an area into check. Add onto that the customs that exist here, and a character who engages will do more damage, quicker.

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[Death]

Is that to hint that current unbardables will be bardable?

Like all the mechanical assemblies that came with LBR, right now you cannot even use them as a target's target. I agree to an extent, I shouldn't be able to make a machine attack something else, but I should be able to make an organism attack a machine mindlessly.

I do like that certain mobs are unbardable, that keeps the bard population in-check, but with the AOS system a Samurai or Necromancer can decimate an area quicker than a Bard can get an area into check. Add onto that the customs that exist here, and a character who engages will do more damage, quicker.

Creatures such as the named spiders like virulent and malefic which currently have barding disabled due to the formula being inaccurate will be bardable (124.6 - 131.6 is its normal barding difficulty). Many UOML monsters are like this as well as certain customs.

When the barding difficulty is redone, many of these creatures will be bardable, so peacemakers will be particularly grateful as taming stuff in the weald, you will be able to peace stuff to save your skin.

Of course, not "everything" will be bardable, like you said. Creatures whos lore goes against barding will not be bardable. Machines cannot be peaced as they have no emotion and satyrs cannot be barded as they are expert musicians themselves and would not fall for such tricks. Some things would differ from OSI, because let's face it, OSI does not allows follow lore (Leviathan looking like a squid and undead skeletal dragons giving hides for example).

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[Minky]

You said some things, will that include the Dark Father?

With the strong AI, a Bard with Earth Eles stands no chance until they get artied-out the butt. On OSI, they're able to Provoke onto the DF (but he cannot be the first target of a Voke), and to Discord him. He is immune to target and area-Peace.

**I was playing around with the DF earlier, finally hit 115 Provoke, and decided to break out a slayer instrument. I noticed that when using the Demon Slayer (the DF should be Demon, correct?), that the little orange-glow doesn't pop-up. I recall seeing a little orange-blip, the same look/feel as a successful parry, but different color, to let you know that you're using a slayer. Here it doesn't seem to show up. I'm not sure if that's indicative of anything, but it might be possible that slayers (at least instruments) are not working. Anyway, with 120 Music, 115 Voke, and an Undead then a GM instrument, I received the message "You have no chance of .."

His diff. is 160, at 120 Discord, that should drop him 14% down to 137.6. (for the 160s, 120 Discord drops 14%, not 28%). I already have 115 Provoke, so I am within the realm of the 25 above/below.

***This isn't a hurry-up-and-get-to-barding-post, just hopefully helpful info for when y'all do get to it.

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[Red Squirrel]

When provoking think the skill required for the 1st target is what counts. So if you provoke undead the skill will be rather low so it will work ok.

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[Death]

You said some things, will that include the Dark Father?

With the strong AI, a Bard with Earth Eles stands no chance until they get artied-out the butt. On OSI, they're able to Provoke onto the DF (but he cannot be the first target of a Voke), and to Discord him. He is immune to target and area-Peace.

**I was playing around with the DF earlier, finally hit 115 Provoke, and decided to break out a slayer instrument. I noticed that when using the Demon Slayer (the DF should be Demon, correct?), that the little orange-glow doesn't pop-up. I recall seeing a little orange-blip, the same look/feel as a successful parry, but different color, to let you know that you're using a slayer. Here it doesn't seem to show up. I'm not sure if that's indicative of anything, but it might be possible that slayers (at least instruments) are not working. Anyway, with 120 Music, 115 Voke, and an Undead then a GM instrument, I received the message "You have no chance of .."

His diff. is 160, at 120 Discord, that should drop him 14% down to 137.6. (for the 160s, 120 Discord drops 14%, not 28%). I already have 115 Provoke, so I am within the realm of the 25 above/below.

***This isn't a hurry-up-and-get-to-barding-post, just hopefully helpful info for when y'all do get to it.

Dark Father is 160 barding difficulty so yes, he will be bardable in the future but you will require high music and a slayer instrument. Even then you'll have about 144 difficulty max which won't result in 100% success but it's still doable. This is of course an estimated value as per OSI so whether or not we decide to follow through that route is subject to testing and implementation.

Also, it's to be noted that the current bard calculator is not OSI accurate (Maybe back in the days of AOS it was, but not anymore). It is a formula created by runuo ages ago which has a ton of faults. First off, it doesn't incorporate recent barding changes to difficulty (Whether they changed this in a more recent version of runuo, I don't know. What's important is the version we have). Actually, I believe demise has fixed it up in recent times to increase the difficulty but I doubt they decided to go the same route as we are planning (Our route removes the generic formula and allows us to target each monster individually thus increasing the control we have over every monster).

Right now for provocation, there's a flag that says you can't provoke which also means that monsters cannot be provoked onto it and it can't be provoked onto monsters. We plan on changing this to the way it's SUPPOSED to be, where you can't use it as the first target:

(Example: provoking a dark father VS another bardable monster is NOT allowed but provoking another bardable monster VS a dark father IS allowed, provided said monster is not an offspring/summon/creation of that monster (Might be allowed for the dark father and his unholy bones but I know for a fact that some monsters, you cannot provoke their spawn against them, such as plague beasts))

Right now the code blocks both scenarios when only one scenario is supposed to be blocked.

As you mentioned, the "slayer notification" you get with successful use is also supposed to appear (Just like if you used a weapon). Just another thing that was left out of the equation, along with a few more missing features (Of course, it always helps to be reminded!).

I have talked to the admin/dev about recreating the barding formulas because it's rather botched at the moment and we have all the information we need to follow through with the changes. We also don't expect a great deal of complexity in implementing these changes so hopefully when time permits we will be able to fix up the barding system.

Right now the admin is busy with a serious web hosting project and I myself have an authorization system to code along with several smaller projects so there's no ETA on larger AOV systems/implementations till close to the new year.

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