Columbus Day

Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:01 am

I had this past Monday off from work due to Columbus Day, but I didn't really do any Columbus-type celebrating. My own kids didn't even have the day off from school, but my neice and nephews in Missouri did. Is Columbus Day a worthwhile holiday?

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:34 pm

I don't think Columbus Day is a worthwhile holiday. I don't think he made any relevant achievements that deserve a special holidy, or at least it shouldn't be recognized in such a way as to get the day off from work or school.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:28 pm

What ARE proper reasons for a federal holiday? I think Christmas and Thanksgiving definitely have proper reasons, since they are culturally unifying holidays. That is one of the purposes of having a cultural celebration, isnt it? To unite people around each other.

Here is a list of all the dolidays for which I have off from work for 2009:
Thursday, January 1 - New Year’s Day
Monday, January 19 - Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Monday, February 16 - Washington’s Birthday
Monday, May 25 - Memorial Day
Friday, July 3 - Independence Day
Monday, September 7 - Labor Day
Monday, October 12 - Columbus Day
Wednesday, November 11 - Veterans Day
Thursday, November 26 - Thanksgiving Day
Friday, December 25 - Christmas Day

How many of them would be worthwhile ones?

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Chyse · Post by **Chyse** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:45 pm

Considering that on his first voyage, Columbus forced native people to become Christian (because...well...non-christians were obviously retarded barbarians), and brought Syphilis to Europe, killing over 5 million people, I'd say Columbus day is pretty much the worst holiday ever.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:33 am

I can understand the fault placed on Columbus for forcing people into Christianity. True Christianity is not to be forced upon anyone. But is there really "fault" to be laid on Columbus' shoulders in regards to syphilis? If Columbus had not brought the disease back, wouldn't it have come 30, 50, 100 years later when the cultures eventually interacted anyway? I mean, there would have been contact between the Old World and the New World eventually, so why put blame on Columbus simply because such interaction resulted in the spread of some disease?

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Chyse · Post by **Chyse** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:39 am

Fair enough.
He still killed native people for land and forced the ones he didn't kill to change religions. I don't have hard evidence to back up how many he killed, but I do believe it was in the millions.

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:02 pm

There were literally dozens if not hundreds of "columbus" style people out there sailing around and posting a flag. Then forcing conversion through the muzzle of a gun.

He doesn't deserve a holiday but, he's really no different from most people of his day and background.

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scherzo · Post by **scherzo** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:09 am

7 of the 10 holidays are only made possible for his achievements. Sure there is evidence the Americas were discovered already, but Columbus introduced the Americas to Europeans. The tragedies are irrelevant unless Columbus intended them to happen, in which case he wouldn't deserve a holiday. Columbus' intent was to find a way to India, America was a mistake, and everything good or bad could never be his intention. Without Columbus there would be no Thanksgiving and no U.S. of A.

Columbus must be a worthwhile holiday

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Chyse · Post by **Chyse** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:22 am

scherzo wrote: 7 of the 10 holidays are only made possible for his achievements. Sure there is evidence the Americas were discovered already, but Columbus introduced the Americas to Europeans. The tragedies are irrelevant unless Columbus intended them to happen, in which case he wouldn't deserve a holiday. Columbus' intent was to find a way to India, America was a mistake, and everything good or bad could never be his intention. Without Columbus there would be no Thanksgiving and no U.S. of A.

Columbus must be a worthwhile holiday

Umm...Columbus had nothing to do with America. He discovered the west indies. On his last voyage, he went to Central America. That's as close to America as he ever got. There he explored Panama and Costa Rica etc. Hardly "Discovering America" or even introducing it to the Europeans.

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:53 am

I think you may be confusing Columbus with Nordic people.... or perhaps you're thinking of the pilgrims at Plymouth, since you mentioned Thanksgiving.

Columbus is only RECOGNIZED for introducing the Americas to Europe... PLEASE don't believe the things you were taught in school.. it's a great except for the fact that none of it is true.
Most of his voyages were disasters in one way or another... maybe he wasn't a vile villian but, he certainly wasn't anyone worthy of having a holiday.

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scherzo · Post by **scherzo** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:55 pm

just to clarify, America's include, South America, Central America, and North America.

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:59 pm

scherzo wrote: just to clarify, America's include, South America, Central America, and North America.

True but what value do those other places really have?

j/k

In all seriousness... yeah he was an explorer, not a paticularly great one but, he did discover some places... I mean, if you sail far enough in any direction in that era you'll eventually discover something...
the thing to remember here is that he NEVER did what he set out to do... mostley because there was a very large piece of land in the way...

I don't advocate hating the man... he was just a man like any other of his day in his class.. somewhat brutal and religious to the point of zelotry..
He just doesn't deserve a national holiday for something so silly as rediscovering a continent that was there the entire time... with people on it.. already..

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manadren · Post by **manadren** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:35 pm

I do think you are downplaying the significance of bringing the Americas to the attention of Europe, because, let's face it, from a cultural, political, and historical point of view, Europe was the world back then. He opened up a new world to all the people with money, influence, and inclination to do anything about it.

That being said, it's been a long time since I gave a crap about Columbus day.

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Chyse · Post by **Chyse** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:35 pm

manadren wrote: I do think you are downplaying the significance of bringing the Americas to the attention of Europe, because, let's face it, from a cultural, political, and historical point of view, Europe was the world back then.

And he killed thousands of people to do it...
Ferdinand Magellan had more of an impact on the world, in my opinion, and he didn't enslave people to do it.

PLEASE don't believe the things you were taught in school.. it's a great except for the fact that none of it is true.

To quote Wicked: "Where I come from, we believe all sorts of things that aren't true! We call it 'History.'"

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scherzo · Post by **scherzo** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:06 am

FloodG8-9595 wrote:
scherzo wrote: just to clarify, America's include, South America, Central America, and North America.

True but what value do those other places really have? j/k

In all seriousness... yeah he was an explorer, not a paticularly great one but, he did discover some places... I mean, if you sail far enough in any direction in that era you'll eventually discover something...
the thing to remember here is that he NEVER did what he set out to do... mostley because there was a very large piece of land in the way...

I don't advocate hating the man... he was just a man like any other of his day in his class.. somewhat brutal and religious to the point of zelotry..
He just doesn't deserve a national holiday for something so silly as rediscovering a continent that was there the entire time... with people on it.. already..

Historians credit geography as an inevitable factor that leads to the discovery of America, Philosophy behind this is all other routes to India were already controlled, the Mediterranean and land routes. only other alternative was to cut across the ocean, this is of course if you wanted to get to India in the first place. India then too also aided in the discovery of America, only because it was profitable to do so, with this in mind, profit or money lead to the discovery of America.....

Okay that was silly, but my point is that if you had to attribute the discovery of America to any one thing or individual it would have to be Columbus. I do not disagree, He may have not been a great man, or someone special, but he gets the credit and his discovery changed the world in a very real way.

The disadvantage to Columbus day likely isn't his accomplishments, but the celebration itself. Many celebrate Christmas, and many would likely not care of the accomplishments of Jesus, yet celebrate the day none the less. I am unaware of any traditions associated to Columbus day that could make that holiday stand out more than Thanksgiving or Christmas and the holiday suffers for it.

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:04 am

scherzo wrote:
FloodG8-9595 wrote:
scherzo wrote: just to clarify, America's include, South America, Central America, and North America.

True but what value do those other places really have? j/k

In all seriousness... yeah he was an explorer, not a paticularly great one but, he did discover some places... I mean, if you sail far enough in any direction in that era you'll eventually discover something...
the thing to remember here is that he NEVER did what he set out to do... mostley because there was a very large piece of land in the way...

I don't advocate hating the man... he was just a man like any other of his day in his class.. somewhat brutal and religious to the point of zelotry..
He just doesn't deserve a national holiday for something so silly as rediscovering a continent that was there the entire time... with people on it.. already..

Historians credit geography as an inevitable factor that leads to the discovery of America, Philosophy behind this is all other routes to India were already controlled, the Mediterranean and land routes. only other alternative was to cut across the ocean, this is of course if you wanted to get to India in the first place. India then too also aided in the discovery of America, only because it was profitable to do so, with this in mind, profit or money lead to the discovery of America.....

Okay that was silly, but my point is that if you had to attribute the discovery of America to any one thing or individual it would have to be Columbus. I do not disagree, He may have not been a great man, or someone special, but he gets the credit and his discovery changed the world in a very real way.

The disadvantage to Columbus day likely isn't his accomplishments, but the celebration itself. Many celebrate Christmas, and many would likely not care of the accomplishments of Jesus, yet celebrate the day none the less. I am unaware of any traditions associated to Columbus day that could make that holiday stand out more than Thanksgiving or Christmas and the holiday suffers for it.

good points...

but, can't we change it to "Early nomadic human civilization which gave rise to the native population of the America's Day"... or ENHCGRNPA Day...

I think it's kind of catchy... and they actually DID discover America.... the first time...

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Chyse · Post by **Chyse** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:12 pm

FloodG8-9595 wrote:
scherzo wrote:
FloodG8-9595 wrote:

True but what value do those other places really have? j/k

In all seriousness... yeah he was an explorer, not a paticularly great one but, he did discover some places... I mean, if you sail far enough in any direction in that era you'll eventually discover something...
the thing to remember here is that he NEVER did what he set out to do... mostley because there was a very large piece of land in the way...

I don't advocate hating the man... he was just a man like any other of his day in his class.. somewhat brutal and religious to the point of zelotry..
He just doesn't deserve a national holiday for something so silly as rediscovering a continent that was there the entire time... with people on it.. already..

Historians credit geography as an inevitable factor that leads to the discovery of America, Philosophy behind this is all other routes to India were already controlled, the Mediterranean and land routes. only other alternative was to cut across the ocean, this is of course if you wanted to get to India in the first place. India then too also aided in the discovery of America, only because it was profitable to do so, with this in mind, profit or money lead to the discovery of America.....

Okay that was silly, but my point is that if you had to attribute the discovery of America to any one thing or individual it would have to be Columbus. I do not disagree, He may have not been a great man, or someone special, but he gets the credit and his discovery changed the world in a very real way.

The disadvantage to Columbus day likely isn't his accomplishments, but the celebration itself. Many celebrate Christmas, and many would likely not care of the accomplishments of Jesus, yet celebrate the day none the less. I am unaware of any traditions associated to Columbus day that could make that holiday stand out more than Thanksgiving or Christmas and the holiday suffers for it.

good points...

but, can't we change it to "Early nomadic human civilization which gave rise to the native population of the America's Day"... or ENHCGRNPA Day...

I think it's kind of catchy... and they actually DID discover America.... the first time...

Well that's kinda long...
Why not make a holiday that commemorates a different person who made an enormous contribution to the world? The celebration would be the same, just a different name.
I'd suggest Chyse day.
>.>
<.<

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:48 pm

tired of quoting but, Reading back over the posts.. you layed out a good reason for the America's being discovered by the european world... money... Then you seemed to make the jump that if you had to give it to one individual person or reason it would be columbus... Thats where I'm having trouble here...

I mean really it's kind of a "manifest destiny" idea of moving west... we would have come here soon with or without columbus. the world has inevitably gotten smaller and smaller (figuritivly) as our civilization grows.

So I must ask again.. what was so special about columbus that the post office has a day off in honor of the man?.... we don't celebrate Pizzaro day or Magellin day... or John smith day... even Louis and Clark (not to be confused with Lois and Clark) Day..

appologies for my spelling.. typing fast and trying to look like I'm working

Ciao

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Chyse · Post by **Chyse** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:59 pm

FloodG8-9595 wrote: So I must ask again.. what was so special about columbus that the post office has a day off in honor of the man?.... we don't celebrate Pizzaro day or Magellin day... or John smith day... even Louis and Clark (not to be confused with Lois and Clark) Day..

/agree

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scherzo · Post by **scherzo** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:01 am

FloodG8-9595 wrote:
I mean really it's kind of a "manifest destiny" idea of moving west... we would have come here soon with or without columbus. the world has inevitably gotten smaller and smaller (figuritivly) as our civilization grows.

So I must ask again.. what was so special about columbus that the post office has a day off in honor of the man

I do not doubt it was enviable, or that it was already discovered. Columbus however did get on the boat and took the risk. From this all that happened, good or bad, is because of that trip, it is because of Columbus you have Thanksgiving, who knows if there would have been a Thanksgiving 100 years later, or an Independence day, because these two events are directly tied to the initial discovery, America very well maybe still a colony of the U.K. if America was discovered later.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:22 pm

scherzo wrote: I am unaware of any traditions associated to Columbus day that could make that holiday stand out more than Thanksgiving or Christmas and the holiday suffers for it.

I agree. Even Flag Day and Arbor Day have more traditions associated with them than Columbus Day. I can't think of any Martin Luther King, Jr. traditions either.

My older brother died when I was 14, and I remember spending almost every Memorial Day after that visiting the cemetary. Some years we would be there at the same time that a military group was firing off a 21-gun salute and playing taps.

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scherzo · Post by **scherzo** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:34 pm

Bookworm wrote:
scherzo wrote: I am unaware of any traditions associated to Columbus day that could make that holiday stand out more than Thanksgiving or Christmas and the holiday suffers for it.

I agree. Even Flag Day and Arbor Day have more traditions associated with them than Columbus Day. I can't think of any Martin Luther King, Jr. traditions either.

My older brother died when I was 14, and I remember spending almost every Memorial Day after that visiting the cemetary. Some years we would be there at the same time that a military group was firing off a 21-gun salute and playing taps.

my sympathies for your family's loss

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