[Poll]Bring Back PvM?

theindigothief · Post by **theindigothief** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:20 am

Bring back PvM or no?

PvM is not Player vs Monster that acts like a Player.

Sorry I had to

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Death · Post by **Death** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:22 am

Damn, misunderstood the question before answering

. I admit, a few creatures can probably be reduced ai wise (Low end, classic mobs like ratmages and the like) but overall I find the new ai to be quite a challenge and often times I will be surprised by what I fight (Changelings, never know what they'll throw at you).

Were you referring more towards classic monsters like old uo style creatures? (Ratmen, lich, gargoyles and such) or new uo style creatures (Changelings, satyrs and the like) or just the whole thing in general?

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theindigothief · Post by **theindigothief** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:35 pm

That is the point I was getting at with the other poll. Who is going to vote for a "boring old AI."

This poll was more of a satire against it.

My question Death is . . . in terms of items and the like: why do you hunt? Is it not fair to say that some people hunt for different reasons then yourself? I mean buffing up Demitels is okay because they are supposed to be hard. I got that, but why make everything else hard now too?

I guess I hunt for the relaxation and fun.

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Logan · Post by **Logan** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:50 pm

I just noticed last night while farming AoAs, AWs, Balrons, Ancient Liches, Troglodytes, Grobu, Lurg, and Orc Brutes ignore my pet and relentlessly attack me even if my pet is barraging them with various spell combos. On the other hand, Daemons, Dragons, drakes, and Crystalline dragons simply go toe-to-toe with my pet. Just a note.

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Death · Post by **Death** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:05 pm

theindigothief wrote:That is the point I was getting at with the other poll. Who is going to vote for a "boring old AI."

This poll was more of a satire against it.

My question Death is . . . in terms of items and the like: why do you hunt? Is it not fair to say that some people hunt for different reasons then yourself? I mean buffing up Demitels is okay because they are supposed to be hard. I got that, but why make everything else hard now too?

I guess I hunt for the relaxation and fun.

True, not everyone has the same fighting style or preference and some like to choose different hunting grounds. That being said, some areas are meant to be tougher and more challenging then others. Most of the time, it's the rewards associated with them that governs the difficulty level.

Who goes to dungeon wrong? Nobody. There's plenty of monsters to fight there but there's minimal rewards. Everyone wants to go in the twisted weald to kill the named creatures cause they drop better loot and gold and give that martie chance.

However with this new ai change, mobs are getting smarter and are able to kill the boots off your feet before you fall off your horse so a few dungeons deserve a spawner downgrade (Labyrinth and twisted weald come to mind instantly) which I will be assessing later on in the week. I know paroxysmus' palace is devistatingly brutal at a certain spot.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:16 pm

Logan wrote:I just noticed last night while farming AoAs, AWs, Balrons, Ancient Liches, Troglodytes, Grobu, Lurg, and Orc Brutes ignore my pet and relentlessly attack me even if my pet is barraging them with various spell combos. On the other hand, Daemons, Dragons, drakes, and Crystalline dragons simply go toe-to-toe with my pet. Just a note.

Oh thats a result of the target switching actually working properly. I put that in a long time ago but only realized now that it was not working very well. All mobs that use the superai will do it, but its low enough chance. What happens is at random they'll pick another target in the area and lock on to it for about 30ish seconds.

This is something thats still experimental, if the values are too high I may need to tweak them around.

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Logan · Post by **Logan** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:45 pm

It's quite thrilling except in tight spots like the painted cave where the mobs can easily corner you. 2 blows from Lurg and OoooOoooO.

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Death · Post by **Death** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:50 pm

Logan wrote:It's quite thrilling except in tight spots like the painted cave where the mobs can easily corner you. 2 blows from Lurg and OoooOoooO.

Lurg is likely the hardest hitting mf around. Think he even beats oggra the bruiser in that respect.

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sliptongue69 · Post by **sliptongue69** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:22 am

Seer Death wrote:
Logan wrote:It's quite thrilling except in tight spots like the painted cave where the mobs can easily corner you. 2 blows from Lurg and OoooOoooO.
Lurg is likely the hardest hitting mf around. Think he even beats oggra the bruiser in that respect.

Oggra is a wimp.

Paragon Brutes are stronger than Oggra.

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theindigothief · Post by **theindigothief** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:42 am

Seer Death wrote:
Who goes to dungeon wrong? Nobody. There's plenty of monsters to fight there but there's minimal rewards. Everyone wants to go in the twisted weald to kill the named creatures cause they drop better loot and gold and give that martie chance.

However with this new ai change, mobs are getting smarter and are able to kill the boots off your feet before you fall off your horse so a few dungeons deserve a spawner downgrade (Labyrinth and twisted weald come to mind instantly) which I will be assessing later on in the week. I know paroxysmus' palace is devistatingly brutal at a certain spot.

I disagree entirely. Who goes to the Weald for gold? Coon anyone?

Who goes to the Weald for better loot and marties? Gauntlet/AoAs anyone?

Fact is if you make dungeons harder you make them unfun/playable. There are enough spots that were coded that noone goes to because the risk isn't worth the reward. :/

Also, unless Im mistaken all these places that you claim were supposed to be tougher were designed to have many people in them at the same time. How often does that happen here? We can rarely even get enough people together for a demitel . . . who wants to spend 1 hour+ for a 1/120 chance for a cinture that isn't instanced.

By 1/120 I mean kill 120 Peerless Champs for it to drop.

The only reason I hunt there is because I love the place. Always have and always will. It is the reason why I went to Big D . . . and 6 months after empty promises I left. Now Im here where it was coded in beautifully and I hunt there just because. The loot blows and the time could be spent better elsewhere, but I just love the place. Then you guys made it even more harder. For what? Chances at a ML arty that pale in comparison to AoAs anyways?

I feel that making stuff harder and harder is just a bad idea. Great for your playstyle . . . but bad for others. You guys have your own peerless and Demitels to make disgustingly difficult(Which you guys did.) Why not alteast leave us our 1/120 other ones?

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d. · Post by d. » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:41 am

to be completely honest, if i was just starting on here now, i wouldn't give the server more than one day. the AI is rediculous now adays, and the loot compared to what it used to be when i first started playing is a joke. For someone starting fresh on here, I can't imagine how frustrating it must be. The AI is crazy good, and to pvm for good loot like it used to be, it takes x20 as long. The only thing that is more worthwhile now adays is the bod system. The server AI wise provides a good challenge for AoV's veteran PvM'ers, but when looking at the new people that give the server a shot, not many of them stay. Red Squirrel has always talked about balancing loot with difficulty of monsters. When I first started playing, I was farming tons of great items from mosnters. Now with AI tweaks, all those monsters are harder, and instead of loot being better, it is greatly nerfed. I'm not sure if anyone else agress with me, but really I only come on for the small ammount of PvP, PvM isn't worth it anymore compared to what it used to be.

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DOCTOR THUNDER · Post by **DOCTOR THUNDER** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:50 am

I agree, the only monsters I kill are those red mages at brit gate. If you kill about 1000 of them, they will drop a 5x100 intensity mod item. Too bad most of the time its a skullcap with 100 durability/100 lower req/hp increase 8/hpr2 or some crap like that.

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sliptongue69 · Post by **sliptongue69** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:04 am

d. wrote:When I first started playing, I was farming tons of great items from mosnters. Now with AI tweaks, all those monsters are harder, and instead of loot being better, it is greatly nerfed.

I've been saying this since he nerfed loot. :-/

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:05 pm

If you saw the loot system you'd see why. The system is a POS and does not really work. I can tweak intensities, but it will hardly do anything, and luck is not really factored in all that much either. I bumped it countness times and it seems to do nothing, just give me time and I'll eventually rewrite the system from scratch.

Problem is, these days in UO people want everything to be super easy and 100% chance for the best possible item. Sure I could do that, but I know as a fact people would get bored and just quit.

Also you have to understand that a newbie starting here is not even recommended to be going to the ML dungeons. THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO BE HARD. But if this is really making people quit then I can just put 1 spawner per dungeon and just randomize all the creatures on the same spawner, and their skills will be capped at 10.

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Dumples · Post by **Dumples** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:27 pm

Red Squirrel wrote:Also you have to understand that a newbie starting here is not even recommended to be going to the ML dungeons. THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO BE HARD. But if this is really making people quit then I can just put 1 spawner per dungeon and just randomize all the creatures on the same spawner, and their skills will be capped at 10.

Squirrel, don't take a lot of the recent complaining the wrong way. I think things are looking good as far as overall balance. I wouldnt make the ML dungeons easier by any means. Only thing I would maybe agree with are the chances to get things from end-champs and stuff. I've only done a full ML dungeon twice so far and it was with decent size and will equipped parties. I think they are fun as they are, just less visited than other areas of course. I would like to see a higher chance of getting an ML artie or cool prize for beating the final guy or whatever, but can't complain too much.

I think the AI's are good as well. The only area I think still need a lot of focus are the new crafting changes, and ability to obtain recipe ingredients, and just general bug fixing for crafting in general.

Overall, I'd say good job lately.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:44 pm

The ml arty chances are something in the works. Right now it's fame based, but some of the low fame mobs are actually harder then the high fame ones, so we've been deciding on either upping the fame to something other then OSI's value, or hard coding the arty chance for some of the mobs. Rend for example should be like a good 20% at least.

Also I just checked loot and its not really bad at all... I kiled 10 ettins and got better loot then I've ever gotten off a DF or any other mob on D*****. And if some of you remember me, I spent LOT of time in gaunt.

For those that want to quit, consider this:

- No other shard has AoAs or fel arties
- 99% of other shards have very crappy implementation of peerless, or don't even have them at all. Most are using the RunUO ML package, which is full of mistakes and bugs, and is half done.
- 99% of other shards use the standard bod system which requires lot of euo scripting expertise to even run as you need like 30 bots to stand a chance at getting even a low level runic and have to afk for days risking to be banned. (its a fact, that system is designed to be AFK - nobody does it non AFK, not even on OSI)
- pvm on other shards is super boring and repetitious

I could probably go on.

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theindigothief · Post by **theindigothief** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:35 pm

Red Squirrel wrote:
Problem is, these days in UO people want everything to be super easy and 100% chance for the best possible item. Sure I could do that, but I know as a fact people would get bored and just quit.

Also you have to understand that a newbie starting here is not even recommended to be going to the ML dungeons. THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO BE HARD. But if this is really making people quit then I can just put 1 spawner per dungeon and just randomize all the creatures on the same spawner, and their skills will be capped at 10.

I cannot disagree more with you Squirrel. You truncate what we are saying and skew it so it sounds silly to you.

Most people come here because of the FULLY IMPLIMENTED ML. Isn't that ML DUNGEONS? That is why I am here and if you keep telling me that I shouldn't be able to hang in ML dungeons(the reason I am here) I feel that my time spent on this shard might be moved elsewhere.

Exactly, you can get good loot from an ettin . . . so why bother with Irk or the like which wtfpwns you spamming shit that you can't even see. FYI, changelings DONT have spellweaving on OSI but that didn't stop you from giving it to them.

You act as though the previous AI just gave you free items. As if there was no time involved per kill. As if without your glorious AI people get ornies every kill. You also act like the AI was just "bland and super boring."

I do not see a Suggestion for improved AI. I did not see a poll until after the fact. You altered the whole way the game is played and it wasn't until I protested because of how it affects me and Weald that we saw a poll.

People that only PvM consists of Coon will not notice it half as much as I did and do. You allready had your OWN peerless to make crazy hard, which you did. Why must you try and make some of your greatest perks(ML) an exclusive club? As it stood, before this AI it was still pretty hard, but do-able. What awesome loot do we get from a peerless that trumps any of the other(more easily aquired) drops such as greater tots, AoAs, or runics?

Just because you make me out sounding like I want free items does not mean I will just give in/up. You took something that I treasured and just took it from me. Out of all my time in the Weald I have YET to find anything that is actually use-able on any of my characters. Decent gloves? Oh right Stormies. Decent bow/sword? Oh right, runics. Decent ring/brace/necklace? Oh right . . . greater AoAs. I hunt there because I like the place. NOT for the loot.

I do not play to have a big e-peen. I play to have fun yet trump my shitty AI advisaries. I mean, that is why their stats and skills completely OWN me. Compensation. Want to make stuff fun/challenging? Take it out on the treasure-hunting. That batch of skills are completely useless here . . . or are marties viable?

Squirrel, the chances for ML arties is NOT the issue. The fact that ML arties blow yet you feel that people legitimately go to ML dungeons for them is. We go there for fun. Challenge? We would go to your god-damned peerless for that. But, other than you and your seer friends . . . who else actually goes there? But you have a right to make it hard. Its a part of UO that you made.

Still, ML dungeons are supposed to be hard and have more then 1-2 people in them. Until we have a reason to go there you won't get more then the stragglers(me) that go for fun.

But every time you say the ML dungeons are SUPPOSED TO BE HARD. I will point out that on OSI there is ALWAYS MORE THEN 1-2 PEOPLE IN THE DUNGEONS.

I dunno why I care so much. But it matters to me that you guys stop make stuff harder and harder. There needs to be balance.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:46 pm

FYI OSI mobs are still like twice as hard as here.... and someone told me changelings have spellweaving so I gave it to them. They'll use it on top of whatever skills they turn into.

So if you want to quit for OSI go nuts and you can complain on stratics that mobs are too hard and they'll just laugh at you.

It's sad since you were such a loyal player but now you turned into neogeo v2.0

The introduction of the AI was mostly my idea but at same time I saw lot of posts about how cool it would be for better monster AI. One of my primary sources for suggestions is actually demise forums, since people suggest stuff but it will never be implemented there, so I do it here instead, in hopes that they come here.

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theindigothief · Post by **theindigothief** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:58 pm

Just because I disagree with you and you with me does not give you the right to start in with the personal attacks. Because my understanding of neo was that he exploited and promoted other servers. Which I have NOT done.

So stop with the personal flames Squirrel. Keep the fourm PvP away from this discussion.

Fact is now you are sounding like those that you hate most : D*****.

Because you disagree with my views you tell me I can leave and go somewhere else. Because I feel the way I feel you call me neogeo. Sorry that I feel as a part of this community but it seems as though my welcome has run dry :/

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:03 pm

Sorry that was maybe uncalled for, but it just frustrates me to no end when I've been working for months on something (the AI is in continual development) and get people complain about it and threaten to quit. Makes me ask myself if its even worth my time and effort.

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theindigothief · Post by **theindigothief** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:26 pm

Not people. Me. I think I am the only one who it really affected.

I love the Weald. It is the reason why I like ML. And the reason I quit big D. It was also the first place I went here and still one of the main places I hunt here. I don't do it for loot. I hunt because I just like the place.

I have left shards because of it and I was just saying the severity of some of the changes that are going on. I think once you fix Changelings into not AIing unless you use a weapon with AI and slowing down the casting or something on Irk and the like it would be okay.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:38 pm

The changeling doing AI has me stumped but that is a known bug and should not be happening, just have to try to figure out how to reproduce it so I can find the cause.

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Death · Post by **Death** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:06 pm

theindigothief wrote:Not people. Me. I think I am the only one who it really affected.

I love the Weald. It is the reason why I like ML. And the reason I quit big D. It was also the first place I went here and still one of the main places I hunt here. I don't do it for loot. I hunt because I just like the place.

I have left shards because of it and I was just saying the severity of some of the changes that are going on. I think once you fix Changelings into not AIing unless you use a weapon with AI and slowing down the casting or something on Irk and the like it would be okay.

Okay let's all take a quick breather here and not all jump to conclusions (I'm not targetting indigo in particular but I quoted his post cause I'm going to elaborate on it).

A lot of improvements are often made on aov and things need to be adjusted in order to keep a balance. The weald IS probably a lot more difficult with the recent change but that's mostly because changelings will now need to be spread out and the named changelings/regular changelings will need their loot bumped up.

Once a change is done (especially in the ai), a lot of spawns need to be shifted and altered accordingly to retain the difficulty. Twisted weald has been changed, tweaked, nudged over 25 times by myself alone. If no changes had been done to the spawn in there, players would die 10 seconds upon entry.

If the weald seems a little "too hard" right now, it's likely because it needs to be reworked spawn wise. Many uoml dungeons still need work. In fact, it will be getting that fix anyways cause twaulo's going in soon and he needs the room

.

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sliptongue69 · Post by **sliptongue69** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:27 pm

Red Squirrel wrote:It's sad since you were such a loyal player but now you turned into neogeo v2.0

This was uncalled for, tbh. Yeah, he's a dexxer gimp, but he's not a flat out idiot like neorage.

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d. · Post by d. » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:26 pm

if i may chime in again. squirrel, the work you have done on ther server is awesome. However, if you look at it from the point of view, if the shard was wiped, how many of us would re-make our characters and farm with the +AI and -loot. No offense, but I don't think many would. This applies to the same question of "why aren't there tons of people flocking to this great server." It's simple, there is too much emphasis on increasing difficulty, and promoting new pvm, and too little emphasis on incrased/better loot. I love this shard, but for new players, you have to give them a reason to stay and play. They will never get to know how great of a server this is unless they are getting good stuff (ie better loot) and have a reason to keep trying to get more. There has to be a reason to pull in the masses, and the answer is better loot. I wasn't drawn to this server by ANY ML features, any custom gauntlet items, AoAs, custom AI/pvm, events, good staff who know how to make good code. I simply stayed because when Mercedes (for those of you who remember him) told me that the server had nice loot, I came on, trained a character, and as I was farming I was enjoying myself and liking the variety of nice items I was getting. When I kept farming, I ventured out and saw how complex and fun the server is. I sure I'm not the only person like this on valor, I'm quite sure many of the players agree with me.

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