Faith?

[Reaper]

And that is why Stasi is so cool.

"just because they had blessed water put over their head when they were a baby?"

That is a very Catholic belief. Like Stasi said, you've only seen and experienced one side of Christianity. So, really, I think your hate is very ungrounded.

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[Red Squirrel]

But, its blessed water! It is poured from the holy grail!

Must... find... holy... grail!!! Must first kill evil bunny rabbit!

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[manadren]

And that is why Stasi is so cool.

"just because they had blessed water put over their head when they were a baby?"

That is a very Catholic belief. Like Stasi said, you've only seen and experienced one side of Christianity. So, really, I think your hate is very ungrounded.

Well if you're going to be like that, pretty much all hate is ungrounded... but then again, that's the nature of hate. Hate is irrational and ungrounded. Recognizing that is the key to controlling it though.

What really important is what you allow that irrational ungrounded hate do to you. If a hatred of Catholicism makes a person investigate religious ideas outside of Christianity, I can't say that's a bad thing. Bashing is another beast however.

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[Stasi]

I think some hate CAN be grounded and justified, and even necessary. However, such hate loses its ground when it begins to be applied too liberally and oversteps its cause. To me, it's the difference between hating a person because of something terrible he did, and hating the entire group of people you may be able to associate him with, despite their unaffiliation with the wrong committed against you.

The issue of religion and hate and all that is pretty murky, since it seems to me that most people who hate one religion and speak so highly of another haven't really investigated either. Perhaps only in the most tightly knit, small cults could one get a dose of their beliefs and truly hate it. Or, perhaps, in a case where fundamental to a religious faith, or sect of a larger faith, is some horrible injustice committed against individuals - for example, female genital mutilation amongst some African animist groups, and some Islamic subcultures. Hate of a practice can be quite just, grounded, and even necessary to instigate its eradication, or at least extreme marginalization.

The problem with GG's argument is that he's taken on growing opposition to one faith, and growing appreciation of another for reasons that aren't well investigated or argued. Two people can have polar opposite experiences in the same faith. Talk to either one and you'll likely receive a persuasive argument that may inspire sympathy against it, or admiration for it. To be fair to him, he did suggest he had a lot more where that came from.

Just for the sake of not being accused of having beliefs I don't have, I will say that I am an agnostic.

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[manadren]

I think some hate CAN be grounded and justified, and even necessary.  However, such hate loses its ground when it begins to be applied too liberally and oversteps its cause.  To me, it's the difference between hating a person because of something terrible he did, and hating the entire group of people you may be able to associate him with, despite their unaffiliation with the wrong committed against you.

I see where you're coming from but I have to disagree again. It's the tendency of a single incident to cloud your perception of the personentity as a whole. A person does one horrid thing, and the rest of your experiences with that person are viewed through a dark filter. Past, present, and future in regards to that person have a new prospective, regardless of the truth or intention behind any one incident. That is an undeniable truth of humanity that will muck up the ground that any emotional position is based on.

The issue of religion and hate and all that is pretty murky, since it seems to me that most people who hate one religion and speak so highly of another haven't really investigated either.  Perhaps only in the most tightly knit, small cults could one get a dose of their beliefs and truly hate it.  Or, perhaps, in a case where fundamental to a religious faith, or sect of a larger faith, is some horrible injustice committed against individuals - for example, female genital mutilation amongst some African animist groups, and some Islamic subcultures.  Hate of a practice can be quite just, grounded, and even necessary to instigate its eradication, or at least extreme marginalization.

That's somewhat of a different beast though. Transcending simple hate into an ingrained social and cultural sense of right and wrong. And that's where real empathy kicks in. "What if that was me, or a friend or family member?" I suppose that leads to a form of hate, but it seems more fundamental to me. A sense of justice perhaps.

The problem with GG's argument is that he's taken on growing opposition to one faith, and growing appreciation of another for reasons that aren't well investigated or argued.  Two people can have polar opposite experiences in the same faith.  Talk to either one and you'll likely receive a persuasive argument that may inspire sympathy against it, or admiration for it.  To be fair to him, he did suggest he had a lot more where that came from.

That much I can agree with. No major religion is without it's bad experiences, it's bad practitioners, and it's own faults. You can't just say A sucks so B rules, without really looking at B, and C, and D, and E, etc. There's much more to any one religion than the bad experiences of another.

Just for the sake of not being accused of having beliefs I don't have, I will say that I am an agnostic.

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[Chyse]

GG said:

Outsiders often percieve belief systems inaccurately.  Judaism is an exclusive religion.  In other words, like all other Abrahamic religions (i.e. Christianity and Islam), they believe theirs is the only true religion.  As for going out to "spread the word", is that a bad thing?

I agree. Outsiders DO often percieve belief systems inaccurately. Yes, Judaism is exclusive. I dont agree with "Spreading the word" because it's trying to impose your religion on somebody else. I dont like it when i've got a bunch of people saying "convert or burn in hell!!!" to me.

Do you really think that if any sect of Christianity were true that people who claim to be "saved" but act like dickwads would be appreciated by a being who is wholly benevolent, good, and just?

i never said they'd be appreciated.

Faith, or a brainwashed devotion to meaningless rituals and "forced" good deeds?

forced good deeds as children. So when they're adults they've learned the ways of the church and they know what's right. Brainwashed is completely innacurate.

Why should people who convert to Christianity be forced to follow Jewish laws?  How is being permitted to live life free of the laws observed by a religion you don't believe in lazy?

Read the history of it. You'll see what i mean. Back then, Christianity wasn't just about Jesus, it was more of a transformation of Judaism into belief in him.

And you think all or most Christians are false?  Weren't you the one railing against prejudism not too long ago?  You see one side of one sect of Christianity and you think you know what the whole of Christianity is like?  You think the face of Christianity is the Pope, televangelists, or some hypocrite next door?  That's pretty myopic.

Umm....yes, i think christianity is false. That's why i dont believe in it... And i've seen A LOT of christianity in my day. I've been to many many churches, lutheran, protestant, and plenty of others. i just cant think of any because this thread is making me late for school.

It doesn't take religious ideology to be harmful or helpful.  Good people exist who aren't religious.  And horrible people exist who commit crimes, fight wars, and cause great suffering, not to spread their religious beliefs, but to spread or support some secular ideology.

late for school. i'll answer when i get home.


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[robonightmare]

my thoughts:
cavemen created Thor, Zeus, Athena, Ala, God, And all of those other guys to explain the unexplained. we have something better these days. here's what it is:
SCIENCE.

we don't need religion anymore because we CAN EXPLAIN NATURAL PHENOMENA. it's time to DROP THE BELIFS. jeez, mankind WHEN WILL YOU DROP ALL THE crap, AND MOVE ON!!! IT'S THE YEAR 200 FRICKIN 7 HERE!! NOT 3000 B.C.! NOTICE!! we even base our time system on religion!!! tis' BULLCRAP!

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[Chyse]

my thoughts:
cavemen created Thor, Zeus, Athena, Ala, God, And all of those other guys to explain the unexplained. we have something better these days. here's what it is:
SCIENCE.

we don't need religion anymore because we CAN EXPLAIN NATURAL PHENOMENA. it's time to DROP THE BELIFS. jeez, mankind WHEN WILL YOU DROP ALL THE crap, AND MOVE ON!!! IT'S THE YEAR 200 FRICKIN 7 HERE!! NOT 3000 B.C.! NOTICE!! we even base our time system on religion!!! tis' BULLCRAP!

okay, explain how the universe was created by stating FACTUAL EVIDENCE.

there's a lot of crap out there that hasn't been explained by science, only theorized. so some people believe religion is the way to go.

and, religion helps people cope with parts of their lives that they cant control, such as the death of a family member. Religion tells them "it was their time" or "They're in God's hands now" or something along those lines. Religion is important to society because it gives people hope.

Science cant solve problems like "Why does this little 10 year old girl have cancer? Why her instead of an adult?"




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[robonightmare]

yeah, but neither can religion.
the reason the girl has cancer is because of a genetic defect that is horribly common in humans. It is still terrible that children get cancer, DO NOT GET ME WRONG. I AM NOT A COLD, EMOTIONLESS PERSON. I feel bad for the kids with cancer, and the starving, and those stricken with poverty.

As for the creation of the universe, does your 'Diety' theory have any evidence FOR IT? my I remind you that religion is indeed, a creation theory. Just like the big bang theory. the idea that existance was caused by a greater intellegence is just as 'theory' as any other. a theory of lets just let a higher intellegence do the work for us. even if it's true, you REALLY don't see God doing anything lately. or maybe for the last 1700 years or so. where did he go, eh? explain THAT. personally, I am willing to accept people's religions. I am fine with it. MOST religions, again MOST, want to teach people to be good people, and I am fine with that. I encourage it. but the whole 'Diety' thing is where I draw the line. It makes no sense to me, and maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll burn in hell for it, but even the bible says to stand up for what you beleive in. and I beleive that if God exists, and he is as good as you say he is, he will not send me to hell. I don't hate God. If he did create me, and he knew what I do not think is possible, hell, he DESIGNED me this way, then if he sent me to hell, that would be like saying, "okay, this one goes to hell, this one goes to heavean." if he actually did that, then he would be an dimwit. and I think that, probably, god is not an dimwit.

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[Red Squirrel]

The creation of the universe, and matter, and anything against physics laws is beyond science, science cannot explain those things, because they are completely beyond that scope. The creator of science itself is the only explanation. When God created the universe he designed it the way it is as we know it. By studying those designs we can only get so far as to how it was created.

It's kind of like if you look at a car, you might be able to try and figure out the manufacturing process by looking at the way the parts are put together, but you can't prove it, unless you actually read up on the manufacturing process used. Genesis is the manufacturing process of the universe.

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[Stasi]

my thoughts:
cavemen created Thor, Zeus, Athena, Ala, God, And all of those other guys to explain the unexplained. we have something better these days. here's what it is:
SCIENCE.

we don't need religion anymore because we CAN EXPLAIN NATURAL PHENOMENA. it's time to DROP THE BELIFS. jeez, mankind WHEN WILL YOU DROP ALL THE crap, AND MOVE ON!!! IT'S THE YEAR 200 FRICKIN 7 HERE!! NOT 3000 B.C.! NOTICE!! we even base our time system on religion!!! tis' BULLCRAP!

And yet you can talk to people on different sides of the same debate and they'll use some kind of "scientific" evidence to back their argument. Over the last several centuries, "science" has been used to convince people of incorrect assertions (Nazi Germany's anti-Jew propaganda, now-discredited methods of determining who's destined to be a criminal based on physical features, etc.).

For a religious belief to be true, it DOES NOT require that it be a mystery. Understanding how and why something is does not necessarily speak to its origin or intrinsic value with respect to any given religious belief.

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[manadren]

yeah, but when you look at a car, you can find out who it was made by. You can go to the factory. You can take it apart and see what the different parts do. You can talk to a guy that works in the factory that makes cars. You can read up on the process in a book, like you said. You can read about what the car is for, what materials it was made out of, and why those materials were chosen. Can you really get all that information from the Bible? Or though prayer?

You may say you can, but are you really discovering the truth? Or just looking for supporting evidence of something you think you already know? Those who believe will always find evidence to support their claims. It's just that said evidence doesn't always live up to the scrutiny of others. It's like seeing shapes in the clouds. Your mind actively assigns meaning to things and fit them into a pattern, even where there is none. So if you are looking for a pattern, you will find it.

But is the experiment repeatable? Does the pattern hold up to scrutiny? Are there any holes in your logic? Are you simply seeing what you want to see? That's where science comes in. And that what creation leaves out.

No one is saying that there aren't unexplained mysteries in the universe. Science doesn't know all the answers... yet. But scientists are still out there looking, that's the difference.



wow, how that turned into a creationism rant...

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[Stasi]

Sure, and since religious belief, at its core, is a negative, it can neither be proven nor disproven because it can't be reduced the way the creation of an automobile can be (at least not now or in the near future). That's why debating theology with believers is largely futile - there is always something to cling to that can't be solidly argued against.

That said, I am sick and tired of people referring to science the way others might refer to a religion - as holding all of the answers and ultimate truths. Science is a tool. It is a process by which answers can be sought. Because it is a tool used by fallible human beings, it must not be viewed as some kind of grand arbiter of truth.

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[manadren]

I'll agree with that. Some people tend to dismiss religion on the assumption that science has all the answers, that science is infallible. Which is just as bad as those who think god is the answer to everything.

Science is fallible, and that is an important part of the nature of science. What we are speaking of as science in this thread, is nothing more than the consensus of a number of people who have looked into the issue that X is the best current explanation for Y. Science is not truth, just the best answer we can come up with right now. And in the broader sense, science is not truth, but the systematic search for truth grounded in logic and evidence.

Science does not supplant religion. It's not really a replacement of any kind, in my opinion. I find religion unnecessary, not because science has replaced it, but because religion is not useful to me.

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