Faith?

Reaper · Post by **Reaper** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:07 pm

Ah, I hate it when we do that. There are some great examples of how "un-Christian" we can be. I saw one on YouTube but I don't remember which one it was. Just look up "UnChristian" You'll probably find it.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:11 pm

ex-Mormon as in you've been excommunicated? or you just don't go?

i'm only curious because my good friend recently got exed. he's openly gay and chose that path, something i seriously thought about doing for a while. i didn't know there were other reasons to be exed. call me ignorant.

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Reaper · Post by **Reaper** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:12 pm

halvertroy wrote: call me ignorant.

You're ignorant.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:15 pm

thank you.

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Reaper · Post by **Reaper** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:15 pm

You are welcome.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:17 pm

Yes, you are ignorant, there are for more reasons to be ex-communicated than acting on homosexuality. Look a little deeper and I doubt he was excommunicated for actively being gay. I don't think the church would see a practicing homosexual much differently than a practicing whore or playboy. That said, I suppose if he took his endowments at a temple, that could complicate things. In any case, I was never ex-communicated, I just don't consider myself a Mormon any more, though I'll stand up for them in most cases when people gang up on them, if for no other reason than the fact that the vast majority of people rail against mormons don't actually understand the theology or culture very well. And I'll emphasize once again so I don't have to answer later on - I am not religious, I am agnostic. I am somewhat spiritual, though I don't actively believe in any sort of deity.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:22 pm

touche.

and i won't try to convert you back to mormonism as most would tend to do. most of my extended family has fallen away so i hear ya. plus, i fell away too, once.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:29 pm

halvertroy wrote: i meant bible quoting...which could be the same thing.

I don't see anything wrong with quoting the Bible. It's understanding what the Bible is actually saying that can be the difficult part.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:34 pm

exactly. i believe in the bible just as much as the next christian, but often certain verses can be picked out and when they stand alone, they could easily be misinterpreted.

and i just didn't want this thread to turn into a long, drawn-out series of verses and quotes. that could be a turn-off for potential participaters.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:11 pm

But the thread IS about faith, so if a person's faith is based upon their understanding of certain Bible passages, then this actually would be the appropriate thread for that discussion. Just posting a bunch of verses in a long drawn out fashion without any personal explanations, though, wouldn't be a very good way of going about it, though, so I can see your point.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:16 pm

Bookworm wrote: But the thread IS about faith, so if a person's faith is based upon their understanding of certain Bible passages, then this actually would be the appropriate thread for that discussion. Just posting a bunch of verses in a long drawn out fashion without any personal explanations, though, wouldn't be a very good way of going about it, though, so I can see your point.

Yes, but is it really a discussion about 'faith' when people go on and on trying to 'prove' their 'faith' over someone else's?

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:21 pm

i hate to be devil's advocate, but doesn't trying to prove your faith over someone elses make sense? there can't possibly be more than one correct faith. and if there was, wouldn't they be the same? or wouldn't they be, because everyone is different and has certain spiritual needs...?

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:22 pm

The very definition of 'faith' is a belief in something you can't prove.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:33 pm

ok. you got me on that one.

but you may be confusing faith with blind faith. true, i cannot logically prove that Christ is real, but when all logic and reason are exceeded by the undeniable recognition of the Holy Ghost, that's when i can have something to tell people about. hence a two-year mission i plan to serve.

if i relied on logic and reason alone, i especially would be the first to leave church and seek out a homosexual relationship.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:37 pm

I know what you meant.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:45 pm

hold on. read my alterations.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:06 am

halvertroy wrote: ok. you got me on that one.

but you may be confusing faith with blind faith. true, i cannot logically prove that Christ is real, but when all logic and reason are exceeded by the undeniable recognition of the Holy Ghost, that's when i can have something to tell people about. hence a two-year mission i plan to serve.

if i relied on logic and reason alone, i especially would be the first to leave church and seek out a homosexual relationship.

No, I'm not confusing faith with blind faith. However, I must also point out that there is a difference between trying to 'prove' faith and communicating 'why' someone has the faith they do. Nonetheless, whether your faith in God, Christ, etc. is blind or reasoned, fundamentally, it still can't be proven.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:13 am

ok. you have a good argument, almost to the point that you have me questioning why i am on this thread in the first place. what are you on this thread for? are you searching for answers? because you might as well ignore what everyone is saying, since you can't be convinced one way or the other. anything can be analyzed and argued about to the point of nothingness if you try hard enough.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:57 am

I never said I couldn't be convinced one way or another. However, I don't think that was the intent of this thread to begin with. Express your faith and why you believe what you do. Even if it means quoting scripture. As soon as you went on about how you're Mormon, I saw a long series of quotes of this and that, as different parties might try to 'prove' their faith and 'disprove' another's, which is why I responded as I did.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:16 am

i don't think i was just "going on and on about how i'm mormon." i'm not bragging. i'm not placing myself on a mastaba and throwing out snipets of doctrine for the sake of making a statement.

if what i say and how others respond is not in accordance to what this thread is about, then i apologize.

i'm losing track of what our little heated discussion was originally about, so i'll just say this. i know i made the comment earlier today about how i'm not trying to convert you and all, which is incorrect anyway, since i cannot "prove" anything, and the Gospel i am natural inclined to advocate cannot be "proven."

with all concerns of the definition of faith and the real meaning of this thread aside, i suppose deep down i'm really inviting you, the sharp, witty, free-thinker you seem to be, to give church another try.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:32 am

halvertroy wrote: i don't think i was just "going on and on about how i'm mormon." i'm not bragging. i'm not placing myself on a mastaba and throwing out snipets of doctrine for the sake of making a statement.

if what i say and how others respond is not in accordance to what this thread is about, then i apologize.

i'm losing track of what our little heated discussion was originally about, so i'll just say this. i know i made the comment earlier today about how i'm not trying to convert you and all, which is incorrect anyway, since i cannot "prove" anything, and the Gospel i am natural inclined to advocate cannot be "proven."

with all concerns of the definition of faith and the real meaning of this thread aside, i suppose deep down i'm really inviting you, the sharp, witty, free-thinker you seem to be, to give church another try.

You have nothing to apologize for. And I wasn't saying you were going on and on about being Mormon as if to brag or something. I was pointing out that due to the very fact that you expressed your membership in the Mormon church, it would likely bring on a Bible-quoting match, that's all. If people go against the original intent of the thread, then so be it. I'm not a moderator, I was only posting my observations and thoughts. If you want to quote scripture and get into a debate about something, great. If you want to try to convert people, go right ahead. I mean, just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it's not believable or otherwise holds no value.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:44 am

ok. ok.
miscommunications can always make bitter an otherwise tasty argument. i see what you say, and i now see some fallacies in my past replies.

but my sincere call to action still remains. i've read most of your replies on this thread and i gather you are very well put-together and above average intelligence. i don't know that anything qualifies me to make such a judgment, but am i mistaken?

if anything i'm lending out the hand of sympathy. because i've questioned my faith as you reportedly are.

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Reaper · Post by **Reaper** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:07 pm

halvertroy wrote: exactly. i believe in the bible just as much as the next christian,

That's not saying much.

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halvertroy · Post by **halvertroy** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:43 pm

you speak for yourself, reaper. poor analogy of my part, though.

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Reaper · Post by **Reaper** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:36 pm

What I was trying to say was there are lots of liberal Christians who don't believe in a lot of things that happened in the Bible. Take Spong for example. Resurrection never happened, God is not all powerful, no virgin birth. And the Bible says the opposite.

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