Creation or Evolution?

Reaper · Post by **Reaper** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:44 pm

Tell me what you think and give your reasons and evidence that supports your thinking.
Why am I asking this anyway? I know what most the answers are going to be.
Some of these are in a different thread also:
http://www.discovercreation.org/newlet/Jul...gust%202000.htm
http://www.algonet.se/~tourtel/hovind_semi...nar_part4b.html
http://www.halos.com/book/ctm-14-b.htm
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ410.html

One thing that really disproves evolution is genetics.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:47 pm

I know this will probably end up turning into a huge argument, so I might as well move it now.

Speaking of evolution, I laugh every time I hear that concept, and I laugh even more when I hear the big bang.

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Reaper · Post by **Reaper** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:58 pm

Was it not already in this section? If not, my fault. I thought I put it here.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:59 pm

No it was in general, but that's ok.

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Clueless · Post by **Clueless** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:55 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: and I laugh even more when I hear the big bang.

The Big Bang: God said it and BANG!!! it happened

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:45 pm

Ya that works.

Or, if the big bang really happened...

In the beginning God Created... *BANG* ...He said, "what in the undefined was that?" And the world was now defined, and he saw that it was a disaster, and hit undo, then said "Let's try that again, shall we?".

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:02 am

Them witty Creationists....

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Reaper · Post by **Reaper** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:36 pm

Well Stasi? I know what you think, but your ideas please? (Not trying to sound like I'm calling you out or something)

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:03 pm

I'm skeptical of the Big Bang theory. But then again, I don't know physics well enough to make that a particularly educated skepticism. That said, I don't believe the universe was created by a God-being(s) either.

I think the Big Bang theory is a simplistic explanation for how things got started.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:26 pm

I could possibly believe that perhaps God triggered the Big Bang, only if the theory was not so flawed. But the theory is flawed in a couple of ways which make it impossible.

But we all have to remember the theory was actually written by the son of a Christian, simply to piss off his dad, and at the end of the book it said it was a joke. I dont know the exact story on this, but that's what I heard. I'd have to do some more research and find out more.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:24 am

Yeah Red, we all know how unreliable the 'factoids' you provide are!

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000 · Post by **000** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:33 pm

Stasi wrote: Yeah Red, we all know how unreliable the 'factoids' you provide are!

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Clueless · Post by **Clueless** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:14 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: Ya that works.

Or, if the big bang really happened...

In the beginning God Created... *BANG* ...He said, "what in the undefined was that?" And the world was now defined, and he saw that it was a disaster, and hit undo, then said "Let's try that again, shall we?".

lol

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:47 pm

Stasi wrote: Yeah Red, we all know how unreliable the 'factoids' you provide are!

factoids?? Isin't that a math term? I think we had to do those last year or something.

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000 · Post by **000** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:42 pm

Factoids: A term coined by writer Norman Mailer, are "facts which have no existence before appearing in a magazine or newspaper, creations which are not so much lies as a product to manipulate emotion in the Silent Majority." Mailer found many such factoids while researching his biography on Marilyn Monroe.

In other words, half truths and lies..

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:04 pm

Oh yeah. we did lot of those in math.

1=2 etc

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Nirgal · Post by **Nirgal** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:12 pm

I'm keeping an open mind about the Big Bang because in Genesis it only says "in the beginning God my the Earth and the Heavens. Nothing about the universe. Genesis goes on to say the "God floated above the waters of the earth and then..." said that thing about the earth rising up and all the rest.

Evolution...no. There are just too many things that count against that, like elementary Physical Chemistry. The law of enthropy clearly states that the natural order of things would be to move from complex to simple systems, not the other way around. Then there is also the problem of the actual BEGINNING of life. Getting life from lifeless matter is impossible without life in the first place. That sort of begs the question of where God came from but thinking about that one is likely to make your head come all unravelled.

That species change is beyond doubt though. THat they become other Phylums though...there's just no evidence...not even in the fossil record.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:29 pm

Yeah the actual evolution theory is flawed even more then the big bang, the poof lies all around us, really. The only type of evolution is environment evolution. Ex: compared to so and so years ago, now we have houses, scyscrapers, and things that did not exist before. Our technology has evolved to enable us to change our enviroment in this way. This type of evolution may happen in other life forms, such as birds building better nests based on certain conditions, etc... some species adapt quickly to certain conditions so some would say they evolve.

But the bottle line is, we dont come from sea slime,nor monkeys.

And one point that makes the big bang flawed is that such great explosion of energy can't happen from nothing. Something has to trigger it, and the mater has to exist. The only big bang that could possibly have happened is after the universe (the heavens) was created. Ex: wenever a star dies, etc, it causes a big explosion and possibly can make more planets, but it can't happen from scratch. At least that's what Newton would of said.

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Nirgal · Post by **Nirgal** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:30 am

Yeah, but Newton didn't really have the correct observational tools to really tell one way o the other.

Look at Einstein's famour equasion: E=MC2

Matter is nothing but energy in another form. That's why you can have such things as atom bombs. Also, combining matter and antimatter destroyes both, leaving you with energy. Matter didn't HAVE to exist at all for the big bang to take place. Looking at the various forces in the universe, matter was formed within moments of the big bang.

But yes, you are correct in that there must have been SOMETHING to cause the big bang.

I'm more interested in the theory of dark energy (which came into being in an attempt to explain the latest observation that the universe' expansion is ACCELERATING rather than slowing down. Personally, I think the physicists are sort of avoiding the question of Dark Matter and Dark Energy because they really don't have the foggiest idea of how the universe works.

Development of technology is not evolution. That's just a change in behaviour. I myself have run lab experiments using bacteria and intense UV radiation. You test your bacteria for certain functions before hand, then irradiate them and test them again. In 75% of the cases, the bacteria had either gained or lost certain abilities (such as an ability to metabolise ethanol) and the loss or gain was directly proportional to the intensity of the radiation. So changes DO occur. Without a single doubt. The problem is, most of the changes were not lasting. Within 6-10 generations, most of the original abilities were back, or new ones lost. Some did maintain the new abilities and are new strains of the bacteria. The are stable and are reproducing themselves accurately. The changes are just not great enough to warrent a new species. Subspecies yes.

I personally don't believe in evolution, but that's a matter of belief. I'll need a whole lot more proof to change my current worldview.

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erolyn · Post by **erolyn** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:16 pm

Okay, I know I'm probably going to get made fun of by all side for this, but here's what I think:

I lean more towards the Intelligent Design theory. I don't believe in 6-day creationism, or that God created man in his likeness, or any of the stuff in the Bible, but I also can't see how life could have just HAPPENED without some sort of design or intent. While I don't know what that could be, whether it's a being like God or a force like the Tao, I do think that there had to have been something that set life in motion. And then maybe from there scientific processes, like evolution, could have begun to work.

Alright, start picking apart my theory! Ready...go!

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:30 pm

You're sort of in the right direction. The world did not just "start" by it's own. Newton's laws even say that can't happen. You cannot create or distroy energy, AND an object that is not moving will not move until a force is applied to it. So not only could the universe just apear, but it could not start moving, on its own. Simply impossible.

So to create the world, which involved breaking these laws, the only way possible is a super natural force. This force not only created the physical aspects of the universe but also created the properties of it - the fact that these physics laws even exist. So one thing anti-God people can at least do is say that it's super natural, and not the big bang, that way they'll sound half intelligent, at least.

Then not only was this energy created, but it had to be set to motion (ex: planets moving, sun burning, etc) So again, a super natural force has to hold all of this together, and the entire creation was not just "made", but it had to be made stable and balanced. No way ever, that some random explosion (of WHAT and caused by WHAT?!) in a vast vacuum could suddently make all this happen.

So this super natural force was God. He has no beginning and no end, and that is a concept I don't think we'll ever understand, but that's why he's God, we simply cannot understand him fully, if we could, he would not be as vast.

It just boggles my mind to think fo what it even looked like before the universe, even the concept of a vacuum, did not exist, it was simply null, nothing. It's like going from "Operating system not found" to a Red hat loging screen.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:47 am

erolyn wrote: Okay, I know I'm probably going to get made fun of by all side for this, but here's what I think:

I lean more towards the Intelligent Design theory. I don't believe in 6-day creationism, or that God created man in his likeness, or any of the stuff in the Bible, but I also can't see how life could have just HAPPENED without some sort of design or intent. While I don't know what that could be, whether it's a being like God or a force like the Tao, I do think that there had to have been something that set life in motion. And then maybe from there scientific processes, like evolution, could have begun to work.

Alright, start picking apart my theory! Ready...go!

Erolyn, as an agnostic, I'm a skeptic of the Theory of Evolution as well because there are some things I don't understand, and what I percieve as fallacies used in the reasoning. Intelligent Design is definitely interesting, and I think has some merit, but an argument or position on something based on personal incredulity isn't very strong. What about Evolutionary theory do you have trouble accepting?

Red Squirrel wrote: So one thing anti-God people can at least do is say that it's super natural, and not the big bang, that way they'll sound half intelligent, at least.

Red, you're a character!

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erolyn · Post by **erolyn** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:26 pm

Stasi wrote:
Erolyn, as an agnostic, I'm a skeptic of the Theory of Evolution as well because there are some things I don't understand, and what I percieve as fallacies used in the reasoning. Intelligent Design is definitely interesting, and I think has some merit, but an argument or position on something based on personal incredulity isn't very strong. What about Evolutionary theory do you have trouble accepting?

It's the Big Bang that I have trouble with, mostly. I can't seem to wrap my mind around the idea that all of a sudden, something randomly exploded and *bang!* there's life. It just doesn't seem plausible, you know? And while I can see how animals, and even people, could have gained certain characteristics through evolution over the course of millions of years, I find it hard to believe that there wasn't something, in the beginning, that set man apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. The idea that we began as monkeys strikes me as greatly underplaying the difference between man and beast - humans are completely distinct from all other animals, that's obvious. And if we evolved from monkeys, than what factor prevented today's monkeys from evolving? Are they just evolution-retarded?

That's basically it. Most of the rest of Darwin's theory makes sense to me.

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000 · Post by **000** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:40 pm

I don't know, the rhythm method isn't bad.

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manadren · Post by **manadren** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:20 pm

For me evolution and the Big Bang isn't as much the answer as it is a possible explination of how it might have happened, nothing to say about why. And it's very likeely that these theories will evolve with us as more information is uncovered.

I prefer evolution not as the truth, but as the explaination most likely to show a hint of the truth. I would say there is a guiding hand, but that it is a gradual process that continues to this day.

"Walk with those seeking Truth. Run from those who think they've found it." - Deepak Chopra

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