Remember this one?

shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:16 pm

Okay, so this was touched on in the "Gays" thread awhile back, but I thought it deserved it's own thread and since it's back in the news, I thought I'd see what people think about it.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/13/evolutio...ling/index.html

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- A federal judge in Atlanta, Georgia, has ruled that a suburban county school district's textbook stickers referring to evolution as "a theory not a fact" are unconstitutional.

In ruling that the stickers violate the constitutionally mandated separation between church and state, U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper ruled that labeling evolution a "theory" played on the popular definition of the word as a "hunch" and could confuse students.

The stickers read, "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

The disclaimers were put in the books by school officials in 2002.

"Due to the manner in which the sticker refers to evolution as a theory, the sticker also has the effect of undermining evolution education to the benefit of those Cobb County citizens who would prefer that students maintain their religious beliefs regarding the origin of life," Cooper wrote in his ruling.

Cooper said he was ruling on the "narrow issue" of the case, brought against the Cobb County School District and Board of Education by four parents of district students, was whether the district's stickers violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

His conclusion, he said, "is not that the school board should not have called evolution a theory or that the school board should have called evolution a fact."

"Rather, the distinction of evolution as a theory rather than a fact is the distinction that religiously motivated individuals have specifically asked school boards to make in the most recent anti-evolution movement, and that was exactly what parents in Cobb County did in this case," he wrote.

"By adopting this specific language, even if at the direction of counsel, the Cobb County School Board appears to have sided with these religiously motivated individuals."

The sticker, he said, sends "a message that the school board agrees with the beliefs of Christian fundamentalists and creationists."

"The school board has effectively improperly entangled itself with religion by appearing to take a position," Cooper wrote. "Therefore, the sticker must be removed from all of the textbooks into which it has been placed."

I think Judge Cooper might be my hero.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:56 pm

LOL so they'll teach little kids this crap as if it's real instead of as theory? It's sad to see kids being brainwashed like this. This is almost like something that would happen in a "left behind" movie serries or something. The antichrist brainwashes people into believing something that seems innocent, but is evil.

The more I think about it, the more scary it is. I can visualize the judge say in defence to some mad people. "But the scriptures must be fufilled". Because this type of anti-God brainwashing is exactly what will happen when the antichrist rules.

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manadren · Post by **manadren** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:21 pm

When I first started reading the article I was wondering what the big deal was, but Judge Cooper was very right on this issue. Evolution is a theory and it should be approached with an open mind and carefully considered, but adding the stickers and the wording within them does show a bias against evolution, which is a breach of the separation of church and state.

I don't know about you, but I've never seen a text book that tries to call evolution a fact - it is a theory just like countless others that form our basis of scientific knowledge, theories that are disproved and modified all the time. To single out this theory and urge students to critically consider it can only be taken as a religious bias of those against the theory.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:27 pm

I don't feel the need to bring the antichrist into the discussion, but I also don't see as how putting some stickers inside textbooks is establishing a religion. Evolution is a theory, scientifically speaking. The courts seem to be saying that because religious people have pointed out that evolution is a theory, well then the schools can't say that anymore because that would be agreeing with religious people.

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manadren · Post by **manadren** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:40 pm

Bookworm wrote: I don't feel the need to bring the antichrist into the discussion, but I also don't see as how putting some stickers inside textbooks is establishing a religion. Evolution is a theory, scientifically speaking. The courts seem to be saying that because religious people have pointed out that evolution is a theory, well then the schools can't say that anymore because that would be agreeing with religious people.

Well think of it this way. We all know that Christianity and the words of the Christian Bible is one way that some people view the truth of existence. Well also know that it cannot be significantly proven to be truth either, call up the doctrine of faith or blame Satan if you will. That being said, a person of a similar mindset could demand that Bibles be labeled with a sticker proclaiming that the words therein are simply one explanation of existence, that other people believe in other explanations, and that it should be read with an open mind, carefully studied, and critically considered. Setting aside arguments of free speech for the sake of argument, would you be offended by such stickers? Would you see them as written with an anti-Christian bias?

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:47 pm

manadren wrote:
Bookworm wrote: I don't feel the need to bring the antichrist into the discussion, but I also don't see as how putting some stickers inside textbooks is establishing a religion. Evolution is a theory, scientifically speaking. The courts seem to be saying that because religious people have pointed out that evolution is a theory, well then the schools can't say that anymore because that would be agreeing with religious people.

Well think of it this way. We all know that Christianity and the words of the Christian Bible is one way that some people view the truth of existence. Well also know that it cannot be significantly proven to be truth either, call up the doctrine of faith or blame Satan if you will. That being said, a person of a similar mindset could demand that Bibles be labeled with a sticker proclaiming that the words therein are simply one explanation of existence, that other people believe in other explanations, and that it should be read with an open mind, carefully studied, and critically considered. Setting aside arguments of free speech for the sake of argument, would you be offended by such stickers? Would you see them as written with an anti-Christian bias?

If the Bible were being used as a textbook in school, then I would have no problem with those stickers being inside.

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manadren · Post by **manadren** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:54 pm

Bookworm wrote:
manadren wrote:
Well think of it this way. We all know that Christianity and the words of the Christian Bible is one way that some people view the truth of existence. Well also know that it cannot be significantly proven to be truth either, call up the doctrine of faith or blame Satan if you will. That being said, a person of a similar mindset could demand that Bibles be labeled with a sticker proclaiming that the words therein are simply one explanation of existence, that other people believe in other explanations, and that it should be read with an open mind, carefully studied, and critically considered. Setting aside arguments of free speech for the sake of argument, would you be offended by such stickers? Would you see them as written with an anti-Christian bias?

If the Bible were being used as a textbook in school, then I would have no problem with those stickers being inside.

heh, you kinda sidestepped the point though. On an unrelated note, the Bible has been used as a text book in schools, at least when I was in high school it was a part of the 11th grade english class. Though my class didn't do it that year. That could've been because of an essay I wrote early that yea about religious bias in teaching

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:59 pm

"Sidestepping the point" is a highly technical skill.

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erolyn · Post by **erolyn** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:44 pm

I already brought this up in legislating morality, but for this thread i'll repeat my opinion: I think both creationism and darwinism should be taught in schools, and kids should be told that they can believe whatever they want to believe.

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Chyse · Post by **Chyse** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:22 pm

it doesn't flicking matter. if you are offended by that crap then you are a stupid flicker. i should know, i know many people who are of different religons. yeah. that's not what thew founding fathers meant by "seperation of church and state." people are overexaddurating. fudge humans. fudge humanity. fudge us all. if you are concerned with that crap then i will kill you, fudge you. DIE!!!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!!!

oh sorry, i got a little carried away there. but seriously. nobody should flicking care. so what. religon my butt. it's no flicking big deal. just a flicking theory. god. for flicking sake. fudge...... fudge fudge fudge........ not like it matters. it doesn't even exist. nothing even exists. so everyone should just commit suicide and dystroy the human population. bye bye humans.

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:32 pm

goalguarder12 wrote: it doesn't flicking matter. if you are offended by that crap then you are a stupid flicker. i should know, i know many people who are of different religons. yeah. that's not what thew founding fathers meant by "seperation of church and state." people are overexaddurating. fudge humans. fudge humanity. fudge us all. if you are concerned with that crap then i will kill you, fudge you. DIE!!!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!!!

oh sorry, i got a little carried away there. but seriously. nobody should flicking care. so what. religon my butt. it's no flicking big deal. just a flicking theory. god. for flicking sake. fudge...... fudge fudge fudge........ not like it matters. it doesn't even exist. nothing even exists. so everyone should just commit suicide and dystroy the human population. bye bye humans.

0_o

Isn't there pills for this sort of thing?

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:53 pm

Bookworm wrote:
manadren wrote:
Bookworm wrote: I don't feel the need to bring the antichrist into the discussion, but I also don't see as how putting some stickers inside textbooks is establishing a religion. Evolution is a theory, scientifically speaking. The courts seem to be saying that because religious people have pointed out that evolution is a theory, well then the schools can't say that anymore because that would be agreeing with religious people.

Well think of it this way. We all know that Christianity and the words of the Christian Bible is one way that some people view the truth of existence. Well also know that it cannot be significantly proven to be truth either, call up the doctrine of faith or blame Satan if you will. That being said, a person of a similar mindset could demand that Bibles be labeled with a sticker proclaiming that the words therein are simply one explanation of existence, that other people believe in other explanations, and that it should be read with an open mind, carefully studied, and critically considered. Setting aside arguments of free speech for the sake of argument, would you be offended by such stickers? Would you see them as written with an anti-Christian bias?

If the Bible were being used as a textbook in school, then I would have no problem with those stickers being inside.

Haha same here, I would love to see the day where the bible is in schools. (for positive use of course, and not for punishment, like dictionaries are used for in some schools... total abuse of a book to do that)

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:47 pm

Bookworm wrote: I don't feel the need to bring the antichrist into the discussion, but I also don't see as how putting some stickers inside textbooks is establishing a religion. Evolution is a theory, scientifically speaking. The courts seem to be saying that because religious people have pointed out that evolution is a theory, well then the schools can't say that anymore because that would be agreeing with religious people.

What you think the courts "seem to be saying" is drastically different from what the court is actually saying. Did you read the part I quoted that said

His conclusion, he said, "is not that the school board should not have called evolution a theory or that the school board should have called evolution a fact."

"Rather, the distinction of evolution as a theory rather than a fact is the distinction that religiously motivated individuals have specifically asked school boards to make in the most recent anti-evolution movement, and that was exactly what parents in Cobb County did in this case," he wrote.

"By adopting this specific language, even if at the direction of counsel, the Cobb County School Board appears to have sided with these religiously motivated individuals."

The sticker, he said, sends "a message that the school board agrees with the beliefs of Christian fundamentalists and creationists."

Why didn't the stickers point out the many other "theories" that are presented to our children in science books??? I'll tell you why. Because the religious right doesn't care about the fact that we are teaching our kids about "theories" in science class. They only care about the fact that a certain "theory" directly conflicts with their dogma.

Urging children to more carefully consider and more critically analyze certain "theories" over others evidences an agenda. The fact that the school board adopted the exact language and exact procedure suggested by the most recent "anti-evolution" movement by the religious right shows exactly where that agenda originates and exactly what that agenda is. The Christian agenda.

"The school board has effectively improperly entangled itself with religion by appearing to take a position," Cooper wrote.

Why didn't the sticker point out that the only way we currently understand gravity is through theories presented by Newton and Einstein? Because the stickers aren't about teaching theory. They're about teaching a theory that contradicts what some people are brought up to believe, namely Creationism. The stickers are indirectly advancing the agenda of the religious right onto our youth. Finally someone in Georgia had the brains to see that and the guts to do something about it.

Thank you Judge Cooper.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:06 pm

Maybe he's the antichrist. He's just starting early.

Nah, I doubt it, it's just fun to try and guess who the antichrist will be.

I just wonder what's going on with this world, it seems more and more christianity is being rejected. I think the time where they prosecute christians is not that far off, but that will probably only happens during the tribulation.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:07 pm

sintekk wrote:
goalguarder12 wrote: it doesn't flicking matter. if you are offended by that crap then you are a stupid flicker. i should know, i know many people who are of different religons. yeah. that's not what thew founding fathers meant by "seperation of church and state." people are overexaddurating. fudge humans. fudge humanity. fudge us all. if you are concerned with that crap then i will kill you, fudge you. DIE!!!!!! HAHAHAHA!!!!!

oh sorry, i got a little carried away there. but seriously. nobody should flicking care. so what. religon my butt. it's no flicking big deal. just a flicking theory. god. for flicking sake. fudge...... fudge fudge fudge........ not like it matters. it doesn't even exist. nothing even exists. so everyone should just commit suicide and dystroy the human population. bye bye humans.

0_o

Isn't there pills for this sort of thing?

Yeah, solid form cyanide.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:22 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: Maybe he's the antichrist. He's just starting early. Nah, I doubt it, it's just fun to try and guess who the antichrist will be.

I just wonder what's going on with this world, it seems more and more christianity is being rejected. I think the time where they prosecute christians is not that far off, but that will probably only happens during the tribulation.

And not in America. We have a little thing called freedom of religion.

I wonder if Islam has anything predicted like the "tribulation?" They seem to be a little closer to "prosecution" than Christianity.

Maybe they'll just start with the religious fanatics that can be tied to terrorism and then just keep going right on down the line?

#1. Muslim extremists - Gone
#2. Christian extremists - Gone
#3. Jewish extremeists - Gone
#4. Buddist extremists - Gone, but they'll be back!

#5. etc.

Why stop with the one, eh?

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 pm

shenbaw wrote:
#4. Buddist extremists - Gone, but they'll be back!

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:28 pm

shenbaw wrote: #4. Buddist extremists - Gone, but they'll be back!

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manadren · Post by **manadren** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:05 pm

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Brooklynite · Post by **Brooklynite** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:28 am

This seems to me like they are trying to defend the separation of church and state and at the same time, undermine freedom of speech, by telling the school to remove these stickers. These stickers are not endorsing any religion. They are just telling the students have an open mind, that there is another way of looking at this. They are not even teaching the other side, they are just making students aware that their is another side. What do these liberals fear? That the students might actually pick a bible? Oh no G-f forbid! The school has a right to put those stickers on as long they are not endorsing a religion. The stickers are basically saying it is a theory, but it is not a fact.

goalguarder12 wrote: that's not what thew founding fathers meant by "seperation of church and state." people are overexaddurating.

Separation of church and state was a 1960's court ruling. The founding fathers said that there should be no establishment by the state of any religion. They didn't say the there should be a separation of church and state. BTW, you made a big typo with the word exaggerate, LOL.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:43 pm

Almost all science is theory, by putting a sticker, you are singling out one theory over others, why? It's no different. Students should have an open mind, about all the subjects touch upon in science books.

Separation of church and state was a theme that Jefferson, one of our founding fathers and champion of personal freedoms, addressed in a letter famously called the "Wall of Separation" letter in 1802.

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