What do you guys think

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:18 pm

about the word Christmas being banned. Here in nyc the Tree at rockefeller center was renamed the "holiday tree". My opinion..its bullshit!

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:35 pm

I agree, seems like a

decision to me; I can't imagine anyone being offended by a

tree...

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Chris Vogel · Post by **Chris Vogel** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:05 am

People who are offended by the word “Christmas” are going to be offended anyway because there is a tree or the city is lacking representation of their religion.

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manadren · Post by **manadren** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:58 am

There are pagans today that still practice the tradition which the Christmas tree is based on, the tree also takes it's roots from ancient Egyptian and Druid practices, but I don't know if those are still practiced anywhere.

Still, the tree has become so widespread, that it has been accepted by other people of other faiths, and those outside organized religion, as a late-December tradition and cultural symbol. So as much as Christians claim it is their symbol, it's not just their symbol anymore. So I can understand why the tree at Rockefeller Center was renamed. Though as Tak mentioned, I think it more likely that people would be offended by the lack of other symbols [or the use of a pagan one] than by the name Christmas tree.

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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:33 am

manadren wrote: There are pagans today that still practice the tradition which the Christmas tree is based on, the tree also takes it's roots from ancient Egyptian and Druid practices, but I don't know if those are still practiced anywhere.

Still, the tree has become so widespread, that it has been accepted by other people of other faiths, and those outside organized religion, as a late-December tradition and cultural symbol. So as much as Christians claim it is their symbol, it's not just their symbol anymore. So I can understand why the tree at Rockefeller Center was renamed. Though as Tak mentioned, I think it more likely that people would be offended by the lack of other symbols [or the use of a pagan one] than by the name Christmas tree.

Well the thing is i can't find anyone that is really speaking out that their religion was not represented. To me Christmas is the day Jesus was born but i have jewish friends who put a tree up, christmas to them means the day santa comes and leaves presents. The tree is a christmas tree, thats the end there is no renaming it.

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:24 pm

Banning things is never the answer. It's like plugging your ears and going 'lalalalalalalalala'. There's nothing wrong with the word "Christmas" if you wanna call it that. If I wanna refer to it as a "Evergreen Tree" thats fine.. If you wanna call it a "Hell Tree" for all I care. Why is it even a big deal.

If people are offended by the word Christmas they need to find somthing better to focus on. Just like people who are offended by anything that isn't vital to their life.

My mother got so upset once because they used the word "X-mas" on a Television show that I was watching and I had to explain to my parent at the age of 15 that it was "A freaking TV show" I also had to point out that the word Christmas was too big to fit on the sign they had on the show. So I wil fight just as hard on the other side as well. The words Christmas Tree are recognisable to what that is in this country. Calling it a Holiday Tree isn't going to make anyone feel any better who is over the age of 7.

people get caught up in the details of things too much to see if what they are doing is right.

"You're scientists got so caught up in if they could do it. They didn't stop to think if they should" -Dr. Malcom (Jeff Goldblum)

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:30 pm

FloodG8-9595 wrote: If people are offended by the word Christmas they need to find somthing better to focus on. Just like people who are offended by anything that isn't vital to their life.

"You're scientists got so caught up in if they could do it. They didn't stop to think if they should" -Dr. Malcom (Jeff Goldblum)

That's my thoughts, too.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:59 pm

Joe wrote: The tree is a christmas tree, thats the end there is no renaming it.

Classic!

Obviously Joe, there is.

The thing is, people can call the tree whatever they dam well want to. Just because your city or your "State" changes the official name of the tree from 'Christmas Tree' to 'Holiday Tree' doesn't mean that they have "banned the word Christmas" or that you have to refer to the tree as whatever name they put on it. The simple fact is that we here in the United States have formed our country on the supposed foundation that we have fundamental separation of Church and State. The word Christmas is derived from the Christian Church. Therefore, having one's State recognize and endorse that particular religion when dealing with the Holiday season consequently violates that fundamental separation. As FloodG8 said, Call it a "Hell Tree" for all I care the point is that your State or City should not be calling it a "Hell Tree," a "Heaven Tree," an "Allah Tree," or a "Buddha Tree," any more than they should be calling it a "Christmas Tree."

You can call it whatever you want.

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manadren · Post by **manadren** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:10 pm

90% are going to call it a Christmas tree anyway. But by calling it a holiday tree they are pretending to be more tolerant, and trying to quell the yells of protest of people who care way to much about something so trivial. Still a backlash against the change would seem to me evidence of the same.

A tree in the middle of Rockefeller center has nothing to do with Christmas anyway. Christmas doesn't happen there. It happens in homes, and churches, and the hearts and minds of people and all that sentimental bullcrap. What's happening in Rockefeller Center is simply a civic tradition, the name attached to it really isn't important.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:17 pm

manadren wrote: A tree in the middle of Rockefeller center has nothing to do with Christmas anyway. Christmas doesn't happen there. It happens in homes, and churches, and the hearts and minds of people and all that sentimental bullcrap. What's happening in Rockefeller Center is simply a civic tradition, the name attached to it really isn't important.

Exactly. Christmas doesn't happen in Rockefeller Center, nor does it take place through your city officials. So why should your city officially name the tree after something that it has nothing to do with?

Supposedly.

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:30 pm

It's a tree with lights and orniments on it. but it's easier for you to call it whatever you want to call it. because to say

"Hey lets go down to the plaza and see the tree with lights and orniments on it"

Would be a bit stupid and long winded I want to find the person who made this an issue and beat them with the branches of their freakin "Holiday Tree".. Hurts just as much no matter what it's called doesn't it mothafucka?

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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:33 pm

shenbaw wrote:
Joe wrote: The tree is a christmas tree, thats the end there is no renaming it.
Classic!

Obviously Joe, there is.

The thing is, people can call the tree whatever they dam well want to. Just because your city or your "State" changes the official name of the tree from 'Christmas Tree' to 'Holiday Tree' doesn't mean that they have "banned the word Christmas" or that you have to refer to the tree as whatever name they put on it. The simple fact is that we here in the United States have formed our country on the supposed foundation that we have fundamental separation of Church and State. The word Christmas is derived from the Christian Church. Therefore, having one's State recognize and endorse that particular religion when dealing with the Holiday season consequently violates that fundamental separation. As FloodG8 said, Call it a "Hell Tree" for all I care the point is that your State or City should not be calling it a "Hell Tree," a "Heaven Tree," an "Allah Tree," or a "Buddha Tree," any more than they should be calling it a "Christmas Tree."

You can call it whatever you want.

Well first of all i don't believe in sep. of church and state, but thats a completly different topic. Second of all the tree is a chritmas tree just like this pen is a pen or this keyboard is a keyboard, nothing else. I have not heard of ANYONE coming out and crying over the tree, no regular, genuine american has said anything, if they did say something why not have their own holiday icon dispalyed, if jews get mad then put up a menorah. I don't think Jews would be very happy if we took their religious symbol and renamed it something its not.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:15 pm

Joe wrote: Well first of all i don't believe in sep. of church and state, but thats a completly different topic.

You don't believe in the separation of church and state? So basically you don't believe in the ideals of the founding fathers of our country. Move to Iraq. I gaurantee they'll have another true theocracy in place within a year or so. Wait and see what happens in January, if the elections take place you'll see what the unification of church and state can do.

Joe wrote: Second of all the tree is a chritmas tree just like this pen is a pen or this keyboard is a keyboard, nothing else.

That's the most illogical analogy I think I've ever heard. "The tree is a chritmas tree just like this pen is a pen or this keyboard is a keyboard?" Good God.

No... The tree is a Christmas tree just like this pen is a BIC pen, or this keyboard is a DELL keyboard. The tree is a tree just like this pen is a pen. The tree is not fundamentally a Christmas tree. It is fundamentally a tree.

Joe wrote: I have not heard of ANYONE coming out and crying over the tree, no regular, genuine american has said anything,

First, I don't think anyone would actually "cry" over the tree, American or not. Second, who would you considered a "regular, genuine" American Joe?

Joe wrote: if they did say something why not have their own holiday icon dispalyed, if jews get mad then put up a menorah. I don't think Jews would be very happy if we took their religious symbol and renamed it something its not.

As manadren has already pointed out, Christians do not own the rights to the Evergreen tree as a religious symbol. Many people, some of religious faith, some of no particular faith, have embraced this international symbol of the holiday season as exactly that, A Symbol of the Holiday Season. Not Christ's birth, not a time to buy things for your relatives, not a time to receive things from your relatives, simply a time of the year. Joe, in the same way that many feel disenfranchised by our government endorsing a certain religion, would you not feel offended if, in the same city as the 9/11 attacks, your city put up an enormous statue of Allah or Mecca? Your city couldn't very well put up a statue of Christ on the cross in Rockefeller Center could they? So why should they be able to put up a tree and call it a symbol of Christ's birth? Whether you like it or not, we do supposedly have a seperation of church and state in this country. Deal with it. Your city offials are simply correcting their past ignorances. They are not taking anything away from you by officially changing the name of the tree, they are simply calling it by it's truly American name, rather than by it's Christian-American name.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:28 pm

Horroble! How can you ban Christmas? LOL Really sad. What's almost as worse is people who say xmas. It just burns my eyes to see that.

The people who thought of that, are what should be banned.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:36 pm

I don't see what the big deal is is calling it something else, personally. It's just the nicer thing to do for everyone.

Separation of Church and State exist for a reason, freedom of religion. If a state promoted a religion, then they give unfair advantages to people of that religion; discrimination ensues. There is no way for a state to get around that, our country is based on the idea you can live in whatever belief you want, as long as it doesn't impose on others. I'd love to see a jewish controlled state where work on Sunday, regardless of you religious affiliation, is punishable.

Or a Catholic where all forms of birth control are outlawed.

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:19 pm

MrSelf wrote: I don't see what the big deal is is calling it something else, personally. It's just the nicer thing to do for everyone.

I suppose, though I still don't recall seeing anyone asking for this change.

How can you ban Christmas?

They didn't ban Christmas, dumb dumb

They just renamed the tree to the holiday tree, which is acceptable, though I still fail to see who can be offended by this.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:40 pm

sintekk wrote: They didn't ban Christmas, dumb dumb

+1

sintekk wrote: I suppose, though I still don't recall seeing anyone asking for this change.

Have we not, over the last few years, demonstrated and exhibited the need for pre-emptive action???

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:02 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: Horroble! How can you ban Christmas? LOL Really sad. What's almost as worse is people who say xmas. It just burns my eyes to see that.

The people who thought of that, are what should be banned.

well there ya go. I'm sorry Red... for what you may ask? for this.

XMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMASXMAS.

now that that has been said I wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year.

This is how I feel about Christmas. It is a time of the year which a lot of people celebrate the ideas and morals of the Christian religion. For some it's a period of time in which to reflect on the birth of Christ. For others still it's a time to worship the all mighty dollar. Christmas has become somthing quite different than most would like to think. The origions of most "Christmas" traditions have nothing to do with Christ at all. What do you think of when you think of Christmas pictures.

"Christmas Trees: They predate Christianity by thousands of years, going back to the time of the Druids. the Celtic peoples who occupied what is now England and France millennia ago. The Druids, being sorcerers, prophets, priests, and healers performed magical feats, cast multiple spells, worshipped Nature, and held secret hideaway meetings in sacred groves. During the time of their (Northern Hemisphere's) winter solstice, around December 21st, the Druidic priests decorated trees outdoors with apples and lit candles, placing them ever so cautiously on the branches, in order to express their gratitude to their god Odin for his bestowing fruits upon them. The candles represented the eternal Light of their sun god Balter. The Druids are the first known people to have decorated trees with apples (which represented fertility) at wintertide, and for them it served a religious purpose. Much later, the Christians integrated the concept of apples as ornaments upon the fir tree as symbolic of the Garden of Eden, to be associated with Adam and Eve's eternal "fall from grace"." -History of the Christmas Tree.

"These bygone Celtic priests of yesteryear believed that holly, with its glossy, shiny prickly leaves of green adorned with red berries, remained green the entire year due to their magical properties. Mistletoe and holly berries were considered sacred to the Druids. Curiously, many speculate that the holly berries have given us our green and red colors of Christmas. This same plant was also sacred to the Romans during their Saturnalia festival, as well. The Romans exchanged holly wreaths as gifts, with the entailing symbolism of the circle of the wreath implying eternal life. Christians who wished to remain undetected during the time of the Saturnalia celebrations decked their domiciles with holly to avoid persecution. Once Christianity took hold in Rome, however, holly wreaths became integrated with the Christmas holiday, yet mistletoe still remained "pagan" due to its association with fertility and "non-virginity". So, in 575 A.D., Bishop Martin of Bracae in Germany forbade all Xmas greens, condemning them as "dangerous and heathen". Churches were not to see their likeness again until many centuries later. It wasn't until William Shakespeare wrote, in the 16th Century"

Finally

"Who were Saint Nicholas, Santa Claus, Father Christmas, Père Noëlle and other related patron saints? Thousands of years before the time of Christ, Odin pranced through the Scandinavian midwinter skies on his horse Sleipnir bringing tidings of great joy, sometimes rewards, and oftentimes punishment to expectant Viking children. Odin's son-god Thor (where we honor him every "Thor's Day" or Thursday in our English language), the god of thunder, farming, and war, had made his home in the far reaches of the icy North. Armed with his forks of lightning, and dressed in his blood-red winter attire, Thor bitterly fought off the gods of the ice and snow, thus conquering the deep chill of wintertide with his fiery hot lightning bolts. In Germany, a more benevolent goddess named Hertha descended from the skies with her invisible, non-material gifts of good health, peace of mind, and family fortune."

I apologize not crediting the author but this is all info I was able to find in numerous places and you can find it as well.

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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:18 pm

That's the most illogical analogy I think I've ever heard. "The tree is a chritmas tree just like this pen is a pen or this keyboard is a keyboard?" Good God. rolleyes.gif No... The tree is a Christmas tree just like this pen is a BIC pen, or this keyboard is a DELL keyboard. The tree is a tree just like this pen is a pen. The tree is not fundamentally a Christmas tree. It is fundamentally a tree.

Exactly the tree is a christmas tree like the keyboard is a DELL keyboard, you woundnt calll the keyboard a Gateway..

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Obviously I meant Christmas the word.

Like common,holiday tree just sounds dumb. A holiday is general, Christmas is a specific holiday. So they should just keep it Christmas tree. Who puts up a tree on thanksgiving, or valentines day.

This is just another effort in banning God in general. "hey, people hate xmas so we'll just get rid of the whole word completely"

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:30 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: Like common,holiday tree just sounds dumb. A holiday is general, Christmas is a specific holiday. So they should just keep it Christmas tree. Who puts up a tree on thanksgiving, or valentines day.

This is just another effort in banning God in general. "hey, people hate xmas so we'll just get rid of the whole word completely"

Red, you're missing the point. They renamed it so to avoid offending other religions, not because they want to 'ban god' (George Bush is president, nothing like THAT is going to happen on his watch

)

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:39 pm

Joe wrote:
That's the most illogical analogy I think I've ever heard. "The tree is a chritmas tree just like this pen is a pen or this keyboard is a keyboard?" Good God. rolleyes.gif No... The tree is a Christmas tree just like this pen is a BIC pen, or this keyboard is a DELL keyboard. The tree is a tree just like this pen is a pen. The tree is not fundamentally a Christmas tree. It is fundamentally a tree.
Exactly the tree is a christmas tree like the keyboard is a DELL keyboard, you woundnt calll the keyboard a Gateway..

I don't think you quite understand.

The tree isn't a Christmas tree in the same way that a pen is a pen. The tree is a Christmas tree in the same way that a pen is a BIC pen or a PAPERMATE pen. Or the tree is a Christmas tree in the same way that a keyboard is DELL keyboard or a GATEWAY keyboard. In the correct analogy you are drawing a correlation between an object and the type of object it is and a different object and the type of object it is.

The tree is a Christmas tree in the same way that a pen is a BIC pen or a PAPERMATE pen.

In the incorrect analogy you are correlating an object and the type of object it is with a diffent object and the fact that it exists as that object.

The tree is a Christmas tree in the same way that a pen is a pen.

Do you understand?

Think for a moment if your employer was only supposed to use pens that have no offiliation with any type of company that makes pens. They have a policy that prohibits the your employer from having any connection to any particular pen-making company. (It would be difficult, I know, but use your imagination) In essence they have a policy that requires the separation of "Us" (your empoyer) and "Pen-making companies."

If your employer then supplies you with a pen that is labelled "BIC Pen" it would consequently violate their policy of separation of "Us" and "Pen-making companies."

Similarly, if your City or your State officials have a policy requiring the separation of Church and State, and they then provide you with a tree labelled "Christ's Tree" or "Christmas Tree" it would also violate our country's policy separating Church and State, since Christ is directly related to a particular church and our state officials are providing us with the tree in question.

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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:28 pm

Eh your set on your view i'm set on mine, i'm not gonna keep going on because i've already made my point and i don't have the time to keep going.

Merry Christmas

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:57 pm

We might as well ban the word halloween too. On October 31st kids go out to get holiday candy.

Let's ban valentines day too. People receive holidays, instead of valentines.

While we're at it we can ban Easter. The holiday bunny and the holiday eggs, and we can't forget about Christ's rising from the grave, on a nice holiday sunday.

Oh, oh and I almost forgot thanksgiving. How offending it is to call it that, so we have a holiday dinner with turkey, not a thanksgiving dinner. Heck I'm suprised people don't call it Xgiving. LOL

Sad part is, it's probably going to eventually happen too.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:22 pm

Just thought I would lighten up the thread a little.

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