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I have been playing here for a few months now, and this might actually be my first post in the fourms. It has to do with tamers and LOS.
Basically, i think the gm's have gone too far with this one. There is no logical explanation why a pet would stop attacking its target if a player were to invis themselves. If a pet is smart enough to follow commands like all kill, all follow me, then a pet should definetly be smart enough to know when its master has invis them selves. Losing loyalty at a faster rate is one thing, that is understandable.
This game is supossed to be fun, and enjoyable, but anytime you have to play a tamer, its nothing but headaches and aggravation. It has even gotten to the point were some guildies have left the shard, or are thinking of doing so. As soon as any hardcore tamers come here from other shards, and find out about the Los+AI bump, im sure they will turn around and run away as fast as possible.
This is something that needs to be taken care of, cause tamers are a vital part of the game, and have lost all of their appeal. It seems like every day something else is nerfed, and honestly, it almost seems like the gm's enjoy making it so.
You guys do great work here, and have made countless improvements to UO, but id have to say Los is the biggest nerf ive seen anywhere.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21686

The issue is people abuse it too much so we had to do something. What happens is people invis then let their pet do all the work. Whats the fun in that and its also not fair for other classes who actually have to work to kill something.

But if the time between invis and uninvis is too short, that's something I can look into. Like you should be able to invis for maybe 10 secs and back without pet reacting so if it does react to that I can look into it.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21689

i can understand what you are saying squirrel, but the pet is the weapon. only thing the tamer is there for is to feed, give commands and heal, and with cu's and AW's, most of the time you are not needed at all after u say "all kill". Even after tamers come outta invis, 90% of the time, the monster instantly targets you. I understand the AI, and somewhat enjoy the challenge, but dont see the logic in a pet suddenly stopping killing its target.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21692

basically the pet can no longer see the master, so it figures it can just stop what its doing. Kinda like if you're playing fetch with your dog and leave to go do something else it will probably stop bothering to chase the ball and just go do something else, and also maybe be mad at you for leaving him.

Basically the rule of thumb is, the tamer should always be in sight of the pet. The pet will feel stronger and more wiling to fight in that situation. Also if you stay close to the pet there is a less chance of the monster switching targets. It will still happen but not as much. Get a suit that is near full 70's and you're good.

I don't see why people always want to make suits with 39394949 luck when 900 is good enough. 1500 is the cap for most systems, but does not mean you NEED to have that much for it to matter. Balance luck and resists and you'll increase your chance of survival.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21694

Honestly Squirrel is how I used mill through gaunt (Among others) really why this was implemented? I mean anyone can make a tamer so saying its unfair to other classes really isn't valid. There were plenty of places that a tamer got waxed before these LoS changes where other classes could excel easily. I'm not saying I don't see your side of the argument but thats the problem I think, you believe in one side of this issue and many of the tamers on this shard believe in the other.

I mean I don't really care one way or the other directly about the LoS issue. I have enough stuff that I can adapt my play style and run things in ways you never would on another shard. But if this issue really is going to drive far more people away than it's going to please then I will have to say I'm against it. I'm against any change that is received as a net negative change (More people hate it than like it). I'm not saying you should always worry about every change affecting population, but if it is really so bad it drives away more than say 10% of the active players, you should probably tke it into serious consideration.

I say this because I have talked to numerous people talking aobut leaving due to this change. I do not like hearing new players say they are leaving and when I ask why having them point to one specific thing speaks volumes to me.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21695

I disagree..u will also need a weapon skill (and maybe some healing and anatomy at the current rate)...any high end monsters go right after the tamer upon coming out of invis to break aggro...u will need a wep skill to help deflect the hits coming at you. Disco/peace tamers will are now only good for taming pets not for using them. I like the challenge but LoS is a little severe in my opinion with an advanced AI system like what is in place here, but it's only an opinion.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21696

This is an issue, I made a necro leecher tamer running an aw just to survive. The template does not allow vet, which im guessing a change to require vet will come soon, so i have to use my standard tamer as well. I have an rpv from earlier today where the second i invis my pet stops attacking. Most of the time the second i show i am dead. When a mob does agro me it wont stop. all the undead from a grims a ncro leecher and 2 pets attacking him and it still goes for my other tamer. I can say right now 100% for a fact this will be the thing that ends up making GAME leave this server. Its a great server with wonderful content and a dedicated staff... but making the game more agrivatting than fun will cause a drop in player base most deffinatly. Unless there is a dramatic change our play time here will drop with us eventually leaving.

Please dont take this as me trying to bully my way into getting a change, I just want to let you guys know how big of a deal this really is.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21697

mc biskit wrote:I have been playing here for a few months now, and this might actually be my first post in the fourms. It has to do with tamers and LOS.
Basically, i think the gm's have gone too far with this one. There is no logical explanation why a pet would stop attacking its target if a player were to invis themselves. If a pet is smart enough to follow commands like all kill, all follow me, then a pet should definetly be smart enough to know when its master has invis them selves. Losing loyalty at a faster rate is one thing, that is understandable.
This game is supossed to be fun, and enjoyable, but anytime you have to play a tamer, its nothing but headaches and aggravation. It has even gotten to the point were some guildies have left the shard, or are thinking of doing so. As soon as any hardcore tamers come here from other shards, and find out about the Los+AI bump, im sure they will turn around and run away as fast as possible.
This is something that needs to be taken care of, cause tamers are a vital part of the game, and have lost all of their appeal. It seems like every day something else is nerfed, and honestly, it almost seems like the gm's enjoy making it so.
You guys do great work here, and have made countless improvements to UO, but id have to say Los is the biggest nerf ive seen anywhere.

You should not blame the GMs as it's not our fault the online gaming world is sabotaged by cheap scripts and dirty tactics.

The LOS change was not to harm the normal tamer player. It was put into place to stop tamers who try to make the game a cakewalk. Every day I would see problems with tamers:

Tamers not healing their pets. Pets that would never die. Tamers who would invis and let their pets tank without a care in the world.

This is not how the game was meant to be played. Like players, pets are meant to die or misbehave if their master doesn't take care of them.

In real life, if you don't take care of your pet or treat it well, it'll cross on you (or die). Of course I realize this is not a real life game, but even so, some realism does cross over between a game and real life fundamentals.

The algorithm still needs work, I agree. How often are you going invisible or are hiding? It's perhaps too extreme yet and it can definitely use some tweaking. We're more than willing to come observe what's going on and fix it if it proves there's some false positives going on with normal tamers (If you're hiding and just letting your pet go off and attack on its own without a care in the world, then sorry to say it does not work that way).

We're not perfect, we realize that. Some fixes we put in won't be 100% and there will be changes that leave a sour taste in people's mouths. Your observations and what you find to be a problem does help and letting us know about it (Like you did just now) is the only way we'll know if something is wrong. We constantly adjust things to make it fair. If something is wrong or is not working as it should, we'll fix it.

Contrary to popular belief, GMs don't get a kick out of nerfing something. In fact, we loathe doing it because it means somebody is going to get angry with us and we'd really rather not piss people off. Nerfing is sometimes necessary for different reasons in the game (I think I explained the reason for the tamer LOS thing earlier but if you would like more information, feel free to ask).

There's a big difference between what players see and what the developers see in terms of something that must be fixed. Players see something that negatively impacts them, developers see something that negatively impacts future progress of the shard or the shard as a whole.

Anyways, before this post scrolls several pages and we've all lost interest in it, you can leave me a pm or page in game to set up a time where I can observe what's going on to make sure nothing's gone funky with the taming. I realize (In fact, I'm almost positive) that the tamer LOS thing has some flaws (Nobody's perfect) so this will give us an opportunity to help fix these issues.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21698

Shaggy wrote:This is an issue, I made a necro leecher tamer running an aw just to survive. The template does not allow vet, which im guessing a change to require vet will come soon, so i have to use my standard tamer as well. I have an rpv from earlier today where the second i invis my pet stops attacking. Most of the time the second i show i am dead. When a mob does agro me it wont stop. all the undead from a grims a ncro leecher and 2 pets attacking him and it still goes for my other tamer. I can say right now 100% for a fact this will be the thing that ends up making GAME leave this server. Its a great server with wonderful content and a dedicated staff... but making the game more agrivatting than fun will cause a drop in player base most deffinatly. Unless there is a dramatic change our play time here will drop with us eventually leaving.

Please dont take this as me trying to bully my way into getting a change, I just want to let you guys know how big of a deal this really is.

If you've got some rpvs, I'd love to take a look at them (Hopefully they don't gib out though, sometimes they don't catch everything). Think you might be able to host a link up here but if not, you can pm a link to the video so I can download it.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21700

Seer Death wrote:Tamers not healing their pets. Pets that would never die. Tamers who would invis and let their pets tank without a care in the world.

This is not how the game was meant to be played. Like players, pets are meant to die or misbehave if their master doesn't take care of them.

In real life, if you don't take care of your pet or treat it well, it'll cross on you (or die). Of course I realize this is not a real life game, but even so, some realism does cross over between a game and real life fundamentals.

.

It would be easier to heal your pets and tend to them if the creatures weren't already walking around them to come after the tamer...

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21701

Friar wrote: It would be easier to heal your pets and tend to them if the creatures weren't already walking around them to come after the tamer...

Ya that's another one of those things. I believe tamers are at a disadvantage because of target switching. There's times and scenarios when there may be so many monsters around that they all switch targets and go for the tamer (*COUGH* UOML dungeons).

This is NOT how it's supposed to be. Target switching is supposed to occur from time to time to add some variance to taming but not all the time (If this is occuring way too often, please let us know and we'll either observe it or view a packet video you send). If it's happening too much, then it probably needs work (Please note however that some monsters, particularly bosses do ignore tamers more frequently but the bulk of monsters do not).

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21702

AW's and cu's can survive through some serious damage. There is no need for a tamer to stand there and be at risk to be attacked, when his/her pet maintains over 75% of their life while fighitng a creature. I can see where a pet would become less interested in fighting when its master isnt in sight, but the pet should know u are invised for a reason. that reason being you are trying to avoid unnessicary damage. basically that is my point, running off screen is one thing, but when you are invised, u stay in one spot. the pet should see you invis and should know what ur reason for invising is

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21703

http://www.uomovies.com/download.pl?id=2624

Thats a link to the rpv I took today out of frustration.

*edit*
I seem to crash everytime i try to view this.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21704

Shaggy wrote: *edit*
I seem to crash everytime i try to view this.

Okay, so it wasn't just me. Good to know.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21707

Of course razor has to be a bitch and crash on me when I try to open this packet vid :/.

What version of razor was it created in (Like the one you're using now).

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21711

1.0.11

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21712

Shaggy wrote:1.0.11

And what's your client patched up to? I might need to update mine.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21714

My client is the newest. I dont think thats the prob because im not able to view it in anyway, even opening it from my saved file on my comp it crashes me... not sure if the file curropted or something.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21715

Shaggy wrote:My client is the newest. I dont think thats the prob because im not able to view it in anyway, even opening it from my saved file on my comp it crashes me... not sure if the file curropted or something.

I don't think it's corrupted, it's probably UOKR client changes with packets that aren't compatible with razor so razor can't open the packets and ends up crashing. You might be able to make an AVI but those get huge.

Tomorrow I'll come check it out in game, just pm me a time (Preferably in eastern time) and myself and red can come check to see what's going on.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21716

Here's my view of this. I'm probably one of the most veteran tamer UO has seen. I also heavily play mage and archer so it's not my only thing.

Firstly, you should view a pet as a weapon, simple as that. Since a tamer template typically does not have a weapon skill, they cannot do any damage, hence they have pets do it for them. Having a pet kill something without needing vetting is like an archer shooting down a mob without having to use healing, no difference at all. Requiring a tamer to put healing and/or a weapon skill into their template is unfair to tamers, who need three maxed out skills just for their profession.

Second, the mob target switching was put in by OSI to prevent tamers from having a too easy time and just sitting there using a vetting macro to heal pets while they kill the mob. But Valor has introduced this new LoS change on top of that. In my opinion, both of these is too much. Either you can have target switching, or the LoS. Having both almost requires the tamer to not be a pure tamer by requiring some form of healing and/or weapon skill for defense. The only way you can have both of these at the same time is if the chance of the target switch is retardedly low (something like 1% or less, remember there may be multiple mobs around) or have the invis threshold set to at least 1 minute or more. This includes bosses btw.

The way it is now, bosses will switch to the tamer instantly. So you say they are bosses and they are smart. Well a 1,000 year old ancient wyrm should be smart enough to realize that its master is invising themselves to stop from being ganked by a boss. Yes, after a long period of time (the smarter the pet the longer the time), the pet may begin to wonder if the master just left while invised. 10 seconds is way too short.

Third, a luck suit is really the whole point of a tamer. I want to have 1500 luck because that is the cap. It's very difficult to fit that much luck and all 70's resists on a suit. Trust me, telling players that only play tamers that they really need an all 70's suit in order to play that template here *will* make most of them leave, I guarantee you that.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21731

If people did not abuse tamers by hiding behind walls and letting their pet do all the work while they are AFK, the LOS would not have been required. I will look at tweaking it. the motive behind this is to dether against people that AFK or simply do no work at all for their stuff.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21732

dprantl wrote:Here's my view of this. I'm probably one of the most veteran tamer UO has seen. I also heavily play mage and archer so it's not my only thing.

Firstly, you should view a pet as a weapon, simple as that. Since a tamer template typically does not have a weapon skill, they cannot do any damage, hence they have pets do it for them. Having a pet kill something without needing vetting is like an archer shooting down a mob without having to use healing, no difference at all. Requiring a tamer to put healing and/or a weapon skill into their template is unfair to tamers, who need three maxed out skills just for their profession.

Second, the mob target switching was put in by OSI to prevent tamers from having a too easy time and just sitting there using a vetting macro to heal pets while they kill the mob. But Valor has introduced this new LoS change on top of that. In my opinion, both of these is too much. Either you can have target switching, or the LoS. Having both almost requires the tamer to not be a pure tamer by requiring some form of healing and/or weapon skill for defense. The only way you can have both of these at the same time is if the chance of the target switch is retardedly low (something like 1% or less, remember there may be multiple mobs around) or have the invis threshold set to at least 1 minute or more. This includes bosses btw.

The way it is now, bosses will switch to the tamer instantly. So you say they are bosses and they are smart. Well a 1,000 year old ancient wyrm should be smart enough to realize that its master is invising themselves to stop from being ganked by a boss. Yes, after a long period of time (the smarter the pet the longer the time), the pet may begin to wonder if the master just left while invised. 10 seconds is way too short.

Third, a luck suit is really the whole point of a tamer. I want to have 1500 luck because that is the cap. It's very difficult to fit that much luck and all 70's resists on a suit. Trust me, telling players that only play tamers that they really need an all 70's suit in order to play that template here *will* make most of them leave, I guarantee you that.

I appreciate your well written post and agree with numerous points. The target switching is probably way too high. There's different factors that we have not considered once put into place.

What "I think" might be happening (This is a hunch but after observing, I can approve this theory), is that there are so many monsters around that the target switching is occuring a lot more often than it should be. Therefore a tamer has no choice but to go invis to break the target but the target switching keeps cascading so that can become difficult to do.

I have no doubt that the target switching and possibly the severity of going invisible, is set too high (If we had gotten that right first shot during testing phase without having the input of live players, I would have been very shocked).

As you mentioned before, putting in the LOS and target switching is too extreme unless the target switching percentages were low enough (Which IMO, if you're playing a tamer the way you're supposed to as in, healing and taking care of your pet) target switching should be scarce aside from certain mobiles (Like aura monsters who target switch anyways because of their attack).

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21734

Thank you dprantl, thats pretty much my point, that your pet KNOWS u went invis to protect yourself. It is no different than just sitting there on a vamp/leecher, the vamp, and life leech weapon do all the work for you. You could go grab a bite to eat while u kill pretty much any gaunt boss.

There is nothing CHEAP about these tactics. I dont think OSI has Los, and im pretty sure they wont implement anything like this. With the AI bump the entire Los is overkill.

I hope to see this problem resolved soon, so we can enjoy uovalor again. Anytime multiple players are looking for new shards, because of one specific thing, you surely have a big problem.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21736

mc biskit wrote: There is nothing CHEAP about these tactics. I dont think OSI has Los, and im pretty sure they wont implement anything like this.

Osi also only allows you 1 client with 7 chars max which means that unless you're willing to fork over another monthly fee, that's all you get (Not to mention doing anything AFK is an insta-ban offense which makes it quite a risk).

Valor allows the use of multi-clienting which does help players but also introduces multi-clienting issues such as AFK scripting and AFKFighting (AFKFighting is having 1 character fighting while the other character mimics fighting or is AFK VIA a script or being stashed away. Archery and taming are the largest culprits of this).

We "could" prevent people from multi-clienting but then we would be discouraging those who use it for just purposes such as training OR if a family plays from the same IP, thus needs to use more than one login.

OSI does not need this because they restrict you to 1 account which means you're going to be paying attention to that one character.

We realize this a large problem and of course, we are looking into methods of both analyzing and fixing this problem as soon as possible. Of course this requires testing and research which can still take awhile so patience is a virtue.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21737

See thing is we try to balance out templates. Right now tamers have it too easy so basically everyone just needs to make a tamer, making all other templates not worthwhile. So we need to make taming "harder" by disabling the use of cheap tactics such as hiding behind a wall while pet does all the work.

In the end its more fun for everyone.

But that said I will take a look at the values and see if I can tweak the system.

Archived topic from AOV, old topic ID:3399, old post ID:21738