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I was thinking last night about a lot of stuff that I saw and read recently. Catholicism and gays, Islam vs Christianity and the paralels between the faiths, New Age and Hinduism...even Paganism. There are so many faiths out there, some good and some so totally evil that I don't even want to think about them (well, that is acording to MY definition on evil). Where did it all come from? How can we be sure which is correct and which is not? Does it really matter, one way or the other? No, DON'T answer these questions! They are just a prelude to get you thinking. Right. NOW we can get to the real question:

What faith do you follow, and why. How did you end up with the faith you have? If you don't have faith, why not?

Let me tell you right from the outset that I'm a non-denominational Christian, and the reasons are myriad, from personal rebelion to questions of philosophy. I enjoy discussions and few more so that religious ones. I love to get the points of view of people in different countries, different faiths, different social equality and so on.

Another point that I feel I should tell you is that my approach to a discussion is adversarial. Chances are I will offend you at some point. DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY! It is a fringe effect of my native language. It tends to be very direct and it shos even when I switch to english.

Oh, and feel free to wander off topic. I feel a thread that stayes on topic dies a quick death. Discuss any point about spirituality you wish. It's all good!

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I was raised LDS but lost my faith for good back in 2001, due to a number of things. I am now agnostic. I haven't found any evidence that there is a higher being that oversees the events of the world.

So you have an adversarial approach to discussion and think you'll offend? That's interesting. I'd like to see what you think is offensive.

Also, I think it's a contradiction when someone who is religious uses the usual relativist disclaimers such as what you say:

.... some good and some so totally evil that I don't even want to think about them (well, that is acording to MY definition on evil).

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im a baptist christian. my parents are baptists so i grew up believing in god

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I'm Christian, similar to babtist, pentacost, etc...

Basically we follow God directly and follow what the Bible has to say. Does not mean if you don't read the Bible and go to church you don't go to heaven, but what will prevent you from going to heaven is if you do not believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and that you are a sinner. So yeah that's my beliefs.

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Stasi wrote: I was raised LDS but lost my faith for good back in 2001, due to a number of things.  I am now agnostic.  I haven't found any evidence that there is a higher being that oversees the events of the world.

So you have an adversarial approach to discussion and think you'll offend?  That's interesting.  I'd like to see what you think is offensive.

Also, I think it's a contradiction when someone who is religious uses the usual relativist disclaimers such as what you say:

.... some good and some so totally evil that I don't even want to think about them (well, that is acording to MY definition on evil).

Ah! I almost did too! Care to discuss it?

Personally, I don't think God "oversees" events in the world. He let us go out on our own to prove a point. I'd LOVE to hear your view on this!

It was just a fair warning. Different boards have different limits. I got my fingers burned on some for a lot less that I got away with elsewhere. It's not what I think is offensive, but what YOU think is offensive.

Why would it be a contradiction? You think that just because somebody places their faith in one God, they'll automatically be intolerant to another point of view? I lost my faith at some point as well and for many years I drifter from religion to religion. I saw a lot that was good in faiths that Christians would label as Evil (notably Wicca) and a lot of bad in christianity as a religion.

I draw a distinction between faith and religion. Religion as I see it has precious little to do with truth. That's why I consider myself a non-denominational Christian. I share the faith of many, but not their method of worship.


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Clueless wrote: im a baptist christian. my parents are baptists so i grew up believing in god

This is a point that interests me. You grew up as a Christian. Have you ever looked outside your own faith? Why or why not?

Staci, you too. What was it that made you give up your faith?


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Red Squirrel wrote: I'm Christian, similar to babtist, pentacost, etc...

Basically we follow God directly and follow what the Bible has to say.  Does not mean if you don't read the Bible and go to church you don't go to heaven, but what will prevent you from going to heaven is if you do not believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and that you are a sinner. So yeah that's my beliefs.

Is it just that or is there more to it? Heaven? Hell? Do you believe in those? Personally, I do not believe in heaven or in hell. Or at least, not in the way that most would define it.


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Ah! I almost did too! Care to discuss it?

Almost did what, lose your faith?

Personally, I don't think God "oversees" events in the world. He let us go out on our own to prove a point. I'd LOVE to hear your view on this!

But God didn't put us all out here in a liassez faire fashion, either. Everything is ultimately subject to the will of God. Even when someone is allowed to go out on their own and 'prove a point', if it, or the outcome goes against what God desires as a part of some plan, then it can not happen. Perhaps God doesn't micromanage every single event in both an individual's or natural world, but to say He doesn't do anything to direct world events is fundamentally contrary to the Bible.

Why would it be a contradiction? You think that just because somebody places their faith in one God, they'll automatically be intolerant to another point of view? I lost my faith at some point as well and for many years I drifter from religion to religion. I saw a lot that was good in faiths that Christians would label as Evil (notably Wicca) and a lot of bad in christianity as a religion.

My point is that religious folks tend to be big pussies when it comes to standing up for what they supposedly believe in. A belief in God, a belief in the Bible is about absolutes. If you actually have just cause to believe something is evil, then it is evil whether someone else believes the same or not. However, if your belief that something is evil isn't founded on scripture or other religious reference, then perhaps you shouldn't consider it to be evil. This goes along with the hilarity I found, for example, back when a the new pope was selected to head the Catholic church. I saw numerous news stories featuring 'Catholics' who were whining about how the Church needs to modify its stance on birth control, abortion, homosexuality, and so on. I found that pretty hilarious because these morons supposedly believe the Pope has some kind of devine inspiration for how he leads the church. Also, by their suggesting that the church is in the wrong for having the stances it has on those issues, they are, in my mind, invalidating their belief in Catholicism as it seems to be nothing more than a religion of convenience.

So, basically, I think a religious person who censors what they say, or changes what they stand for based on the audience (including giving disclaimers) is generally contradictory to the absolutes in which their religion deals.

I draw a distinction between faith and religion. Religion as I see it has precious little to do with truth. That's why I consider myself a non-denominational Christian. I share the faith of many, but not their method of worship.

You need to look up the definition for 'religion' because you don't seem to understand what it is. What you probably meant was that you draw a distinction between organized religion and personal religion, hence your non-denominationalism.

Staci, you too. What was it that made you give up your faith?

First off, it's 'Stasi', pronounced 'Shtah-zee', which is the short form of 'Staatssicherheitspolizei', the secret police of the former E. Germany. Before you get any distorted ideas of why I must have selected it, I've been using it as an online alias for many years that started back when I was playing Counter-Strike.

To answer the question of what made me give up my faith, well, there is no single event or motivation I credit with it. However, one major one was September 11. I realized more clearly than I ever had previous to that event that horrible, horrible things happen to good people, whether they are the most faithful and wonderfully Christian/Islamic/Jewish/Hindu, and so on. How can God allow such things to happen so many of the faithful? I include the other Abrahamic religions as well as a sample of a pagan one for a reason you should be able to deduct from some of my other reasoning here.

Some things that drove me away from the LDS faith include the fact that you're basically supposed to marry within the church. Sure, you can marry outside of it, but the highest level of salvation is unreachable unless you're married in a temple, which can only be done between two members of the church considered worthy of being in the temple in the first place.

I didn't like the cliquishness of the church, either. Even though I was raised in it, I almost never felt as though I fit in with my peers. Sure, when I'd stop going to activities or church altogether, all of a sudden I'd have all kinds of friends, but after a bit things just return.

Being a fan of R-rated films, I had a problem with the President of the church telling everyone not to watch them. First off, if, for example, I lived by what he said to this day, I couldn't, in good conscience, watch the R-rated film Kung Fu Hustle, which, in comparison with a great many PG-13 films, has far less corruptible material. I knew LDS people who wouldn't watch R-rated films but seemed to have no qualms about watching stuff like the Austin Powers movies, which are full to the brim with sexuality. That kind of mindlessness is a turn off to me. If you don't do something because you believe in the underlying principle, then why do you bother?

There are other concepts that I have been educated on that have lessened my religiousity. These notions include such things as feeling the 'spirit', having visions, having prayers answered, and so on.

People of various belief systems, Judeo-Christian and non believe they've had their prayers answered, seen visions of their god(s) or other beings in their belief system, and they have felt the power of their God(s) presence.

After having lots of unanswered prayers myself (I know, supposedly prayers are answered in ways sometimes unbeknownst to us, but what's the point of that?), having a difficult time with faith, and for the other things I've mentioned here, I no longer hold any religious beliefs. And yes, I have thought about other religions and belief systems, but to be honest, I'm not interested. I no longer see any truth in Christianity or any others.

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Nirgal wrote:

Clueless wrote: im a baptist christian. my parents are baptists so i grew up believing in god

This is a point that interests me. You grew up as a Christian. Have you ever looked outside your own faith? Why or why not?

Staci, you too. What was it that made you give up your faith?

no i havent really, i havent found a reason to not believe in the things i do. im just going to continue growing up, and growing closer to god

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Nirgal wrote:

Red Squirrel wrote: I'm Christian, similar to babtist, pentacost, etc...

Basically we follow God directly and follow what the Bible has to say.  Does not mean if you don't read the Bible and go to church you don't go to heaven, but what will prevent you from going to heaven is if you do not believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and that you are a sinner. So yeah that's my beliefs.

Is it just that or is there more to it? Heaven? Hell? Do you believe in those? Personally, I do not believe in heaven or in hell. Or at least, not in the way that most would define it.

Well simply put I believe/know that when I die, if I'm saved I go to heaven. Being saved is simply asking jesus in your heart and accepting you are a sinner. Some people are actually saved but they don't know it.

I was actually raised catholic then we Switched to Christian™ but the two are very close, well enough I guess.

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Catholics ARE Christians, kiddo.

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That's where most people get it wrong, catholics arn't Christians. Just because you go to church every Easter and Christmas does not mean you go to heaven. Some Catholics ARE Christians, but most arn't. Good works alone does not get you in heaven, like Catholics think.

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why do catholics always worship mary so much? mary cant do anything. the bible even says "Jesus answered, 'i am the way, the truth, and the life. no one comes to the father except through me'" so whats with all the stuff about mary?

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Yeah I always wonder that too. That and the fact that the pope is almost treated like he IS God. Same with priests. Like why do you need to go see a priest in a scary dark room to confess your sins? LOL Just ask Jesus.

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Red Squirrel wrote: That's where most people get it wrong,  catholics arn't Christians.  Just because you go to church every Easter and Christmas does not mean you go to heaven.  Some Catholics ARE Christians, but most arn't.  Good works alone does not get you in heaven, like Catholics think.

You're scary. Central to the Catholic faith is the acceptance of Christ as the savior. So, how again is Catholicism a non-Christian religion?

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Nice. This discussion was short-lived....

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Catholics are extremely close to being Christians in many ways, but they often miss the boat when it comes to why Jesus died on the cross. They also believe they can get in heaven simply by good works. Now that may sound great but unfortunatly it does not work that way.

But it's probably very easy to direct a catholic in the right direction then someone who is in another religion or athiests. Whenever I talk to someone who is catholic they agree with everything, so personaly I sometimes think that there's way more Christian catholics then I think.

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You misunderstand Catholicism. As a Catholic, you would have to accept Christ as the Savior in addition to good works in order to get into Heaven.

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Stasi wrote: You misunderstand Catholicism.  As a Catholic, you would have to accept Christ as the Savior in addition to good works in order to get into Heaven.

It is the "in addition to" that is the problem. If the Bible says that Christ alone is sufficient for salvation without any works on our part (which it does), and Catholics add the doing of works as an additional requirement, then Catholics are teaching a separate gospel apart from what the Bible teaches.


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Don't they also have a couple more books added to the Bible?

Good works is good, and God wants us to do it, but it's not what you need to get to heaven. No matter how nice we are, we are still sinners.

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The Bible says nothing of good works being necessary? It seems to me that yes, you can find verses here and there that belief in Christ is necessary to find salvation, without mentioning good works as a co-requisite, but there are other passages that speak otherwise. Taken as a whole, it appears to me that the Bible admonishes Christians to both accept Christ as the Savior AND lead righteous lives in order to achieve salvation.

From the King James version of the Bible:

James 1:22-27 (This seems to say that those who don't do the good works that go along with true faith in Christ are the ones whose religion is false.)

22. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23. For if any be a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24. For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

26. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

27. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2:14

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?

James 2:17-20

17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18. Yeah, a man may say, Thou has fiath, and I have works: shew me thy faith without they works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

(19 is one of my favorites on the subject)

19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou does well: the devils also believe and tremble.

20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:23-24

23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

(This one is critical to this discussion)

24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Ecclesiastes 12:14

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Micah 6:8

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God?

Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1 John 3:10 (Are 'good works' not included in what it is to be 'righteous'?)

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 3:17 (Doesn't this verse imply good works?)

But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?



Anyway, my question remains unanswered. How are Catholics who accept Christ as the Savior, and believe that they must live righteously to acheive salvation not Christians?

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Catholics who accept Christ as their savior are saved so yes they'll go to heaven, but lot of them don't really know the concept of accepting Christ as their savior. We used to be catholic, and my mom asked the priest why Jesus died on the cross and why it has so much sigificance, you know what the priest said? He said it's a suprise, you'll only know when you get to heaven. That's BS because you NEED to know why he died on the cross (for your sins) as by being a believer, you believe that he died on the cross for your sins, but if you don't know why he died it kind of screws things up a little. He certainly did not die that way just for fun.

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Well now we go back to another thing. Central to Catholicism, as all Christian religions, is the recognition and acceptance of Christ as the Savior. Therefore, to say the Catholic Church is not a Christian church is absurdity, but you keep saying it. Variation in interpretations notwithstanding, if central to a religion's dogma is that one must believe Christ is the Savior, then that religion is fundamentally Christian. Some Christian faiths declare that one must be righteous in addition to that belief in Christ to achieve salvation, but they're Christian nonetheless.

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Let A= Faith in Christ ALONE
Let B= works
I believe Christ teaches that A is a requirement for salvation, and once salvation has been obtained, B will naturally follow. If B is not seen, then A has never truly happened. This is what those verses above are saying, that if B is not present, then A (and thus salvation) never happened. But B should not be considered as a requirement to get salvation, only as an outgrowth of salvation.

Catholics try to put A and B together as the requirement, which cannot work because A is faith in Christ ALONE. Adding B to the requirement negates A. Adding B contradicts Christ, and if a religion is contradicting Christ, how can it be following Christ?

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just to add a little tidbit....

maybe the catholics have it right? you do know what the word christian means, right? it means 'christ-like'....how can you be christ-like without doing good works like jesus (haysoos) did?

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