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Bookworm wrote: Faith is not the source of the hate.

Yes it is, turn on the news. Throughout history, more people have been slaughtered in the name of god(or a god) than for any other reason. Fact.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:48509

its cuz people are stupid, not god

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:48510

To say that 'faith' has nothing to do with one's zealotry is a bit naive, in my opinion. However, humanity's tendancy towards self-righteousness, dislike of things that are 'different', and so on lead a person to express their faith violently. Because so much in religion comes down to interpretation of the written doctrine, there will naturally be disagreements amongst believers. But when a person can point to passages that justify, even perhaps in a fairly roundabout manner that is disagreeable to most others of the faith, then to say the doctrine, or faith itself has nothing to do with the dark side of religious belief is akin to putting one's head in the sand. There will always be radicals, whether they be in religion or secular ideology.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:48513

Stasi wrote:
But... why should I believe something I have no reason to believe?  I have seen no evidence of God's hand at work.

raised in the church myself I was confronted with this question while I served in the army. My answer was simple.

It is a well know fact, man has landed on the moon, most people believe this to be true. However most people have not been to the moon and seen the evidence, the same holds true for the gospels IMO.

This only explains 'how' its possible to believe. 'why' is more critical. Why should I believe man has been on the moon, or that the world is round? I am a simple man, and these things change little for my life. As far as the world being round is concerned, I know that water flows downhill, and as man being on the moon, I know that it rizes at night. Perhaps what I'm saying is, we need to hold true to the basics, water flows downhill.

Jesus said, love God above all, and love your neighbour as yourself. He also said, it is impossible to love God and hate your neighbour.

the basics of the bible that I hold true, Love your neighbour as yourself. for me this is water that flows downhill.




Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:51721

btw I might add that 'loving your neighbour as yourself' is impossible


children make is so, children are our downfall. There is not a parent in the world who would stop at nothing to protect their children.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:51722

scherzo wrote:

Stasi wrote:
But... why should I believe something I have no reason to believe?  I have seen no evidence of God's hand at work.

raised in the church myself I was confronted with this question while I served in the army. My answer was simple.

It is a well know fact, man has landed on the moon, most people believe this to be true. However most people have not been to the moon and seen the evidence, the same holds true for the gospels IMO.

This only explains 'how' its possible to believe. 'why' is more critical. Why should I believe man has been on the moon, or that the world is round? I am a simple man, and these things change little for my life. As far as the world being round is concerned, I know that water flows downhill, and as man being on the moon, I know that it rizes at night. Perhaps what I'm saying is, we need to hold true to the basics, water flows downhill.

Jesus said, love God above all, and love your neighbour as yourself. He also said, it is impossible to love God and hate your neighbour.

the basics of the bible that I hold true, Love your neighbour as yourself. for me this is water that flows downhill.

Comparing the belief that man has landed on the moon to that of the existence of some god-being doesn't work, in my book. There is photographic and video evidence of the landing. Also, one can construct a practically flawless timeline of events for the mission, as well as engineer the vessels that got the crew to the moon and back. The Bible does not do this for Christianity. It is full of stories and most people can't even agree on what should be taken as literal or figurative. I don't see that Christianity is more true than Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. because there is no evidence of its truth. People talk about seeing the evidence in nature and so on, but people have been saying that for quite some time, and not all have been Christian.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:51726

Stasi wrote:

Comparing the belief that man has landed on the moon to that of the existence of some god-being doesn't work, in my book.  There is photographic and video evidence of the landing.  Also, one can construct a practically flawless timeline of events for the mission, as well as engineer the vessels that got the crew to the moon and back.  The Bible does not do this for Christianity.  It is full of stories and most people can't even agree on what should be taken as literal or figurative.  I don't see that Christianity is more true than Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. because there is no evidence of its truth.  People talk about seeing the evidence in nature and so on, but people have been saying that for quite some time, and not all have been Christian.

I would disagree, there is compelling evidence that a man named Jesus did exist. only question remains is wether or not he was the Son of God. To aid in believing there are the miricles, and of course the crucifiction. Jesus was given a simple way out of being crucified, what did he have to profit by dening that chance.

We rely on witness' for both events, witness' are subject to credibility tests. We believe man landed on the moon because we find the witness' credible, the same is for the Son of God, however his event was 2,000 years ago.


Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:51749

You can't convince someone of the truth of Christianity by essentially saying 'because the Bible tells me so'. There are miracles and numerous anecdotes illustrating the truth of many of the world's religions. That a man named Jesus existed really isn't the question. The question is, was he the son of God (as you mention). Many of the world's legends are built around real people - that doesn't mean their legendary acts actually happened.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:51751

Stasi wrote: hat doesn't mean their legendary acts actually happened.

We have evidence today of 'faith healing' where dr.'s give placebo's to patients. other miracles like walking on water, and the resurection are more popular for dissection. Okay so lets remove these miracles, and concider the probability factor.

Virgin birth, science has discovered that virgin birth actually is not that uncommon. what is uncommon is the child is 'male' the chances of this are so remote that throught human history we could only have one.

predictions, the jewish faith has numerous predictions of Jesus before he was born. the earliest reverence was Genisis. throughout the old testemant there are references to Him, including his place of birth.

King harrod slaughtered all children 2 years and under, Jesus survived ( also a secular recording )

His teachings. This was the man that went against common thought and teachings of the time.

The probability of all these things for me are Highly highly unlikely, yet they happened. IMO it is only logic that supports He was at the very least extrodinary. His teachings make me believe in more. His teachings are the truth.

The analogy was the man on the moon,

one can construct a practically flawless timeline of events for the mission, as well as engineer the vessels that got the crew to the moon and back.

- agreed, however the question was Man actually on the moon? We could have just flown around it and had some elaberate deception for the cold war. Landing and returning was actually quite difficult, the u.s. might have played a trick with the soviets, there are some evidence and arguments against the landing ( some are common sence, others more elaborate) really it is a matter of faith.



Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:51761

We have evidence today of 'faith healing' where dr.'s give placebo's to patients. other miracles like walking on water, and the resurection are more popular for dissection. Okay so lets remove these miracles, and concider the probability factor.

So-called faith healing where doctors give patients placebos doesn't require a faith in Christ, or any supernatural being for that matter. Therefore, it does nothing to explain or promote the truthfulness of the Christian religion.

Virgin birth, science has discovered that virgin birth actually is not that uncommon. what is uncommon is the child is 'male' the chances of this are so remote that throught human history we could only have one.

Since when was virgin birth 'actually not that uncommon'? Though circumstances can be constructed under which it is possible for a virgin to get pregnant, the simple biological fact that an egg and sperm have to meet up remains regardless. Basically, Jesus' mother's reproductive system would have had to make some level of contact with someone's sperm. Women are not asexual. Nevertheless, the inclusion of a virgin birth in a religion's 'history' is not unique to Christian theology.

predictions, the jewish faith has numerous predictions of Jesus before he was born. the earliest reverence was Genisis. throughout the old testemant there are references to Him, including his place of birth.

The Old Testament doesn't mention the name 'Jesus'. I don't recall it predicting the time the messiah would have been born either. Have you studied other religious belief systems? Talk to Jews, muslims, or members of new age cults (Christian and non-Christian) and you'll hear of prophecy fulfilled. Still this does nothing to suggest that Christianity is more true than other belief systems.

His teachings. This was the man that went against common thought and teachings of the time.

So what? Are the only people who can challege the norms of a given society messiahs?

The probability of all these things for me are Highly highly unlikely, yet they happened. IMO it is only logic that supports He was at the very least extrodinary. His teachings make me believe in more. His teachings are the truth.

People said pretty much the same things of David Koresh of the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones of People's Temple, and the sick nut in charge of Heaven's Gate (I forget his name). Why should anyone believe your Christianity is the truth? ...and don't say 'because it is true' when the only it can be proved is by its own doctrine, which isn't proof at all.

- agreed, however the question was Man actually on the moon? We could have just flown around it and had some elaberate deception for the cold war. Landing and returning was actually quite difficult, the u.s. might have played a trick with the soviets, there are some evidence and arguments against the landing ( some are common sence, others more elaborate) really it is a matter of faith.

My point was that there is tangible evidence of the mission. Where is the tangible evidence of Christ as the Savior, or of God himself?


What I'm trying to get at is the question - why should I or anyone else believe that the Christian religion is true, and the others out there are false?

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:51764

I'm LDS. I was born into it and baptized when I was eight. I've had periods in my life when I questioned my faith and questioned myself as someone who is attracted to the same sex.

I've recently had a paradigm shift regarding my attraction and my church, and I feel like I'm entering my faith again from a fresher angle.

Bizarre, though. I always thought being gay and mormon was an oxymoron, and it isn't.

I'm open to any questions. Nothing should offend me.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:52996

so you're a gay mormon?

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53003

yes, but I don't practice. I have in the past...but not anymore. I've recently come to terms with my faith and I actually try to follow what I believe.

I don't think anything less of other gay people for doing what they feel is right, because I obviously understand, but I don't support perverts, gay or straight.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53005

So what do you believe now?

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53006

If you want to know what the LDS faith is all about in general, then I would suggest www.lds.org, but i'm assuming you're asking about how I see my attraction in light of the Gospel. So here it is, as clearly as I can state it.

First: Although I only know a fraction of Gospel doctrine right now, my life is a continuing process of learing and I believe the Gospel is accurate and true without error. I would never do anything to jeopardize my membership.

Second: For some reason, whether it be naturally or nurturally, I feel attraction to men and not women. I did not chose this, but I have it. It took me a long time to admit this to myself, and even longer to realize that it isn't a sin, only to act upon it is - that's gospel doctrine, though most LDS people don't realize it.

Third: It sucks! My options are to either (1) live celibate, (2) try my luck with marrying a woman, or (3) try therapy and see if my orientation can't change. All of these options seem loathsome.

Fourth: I live one day at a time with my focus on Christ. I can't look down at the "winds boisterous" or I will most likely sink. I've put my trust in the Savior because my feelings contradict what I believe and there is no juxtaposing. All I can do is let my life unfold as I go along.

Excuse me if I am using too much mormon jargon.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53009

Well, thank you for responding. And I was asking more what you believe theologically, than being gay and the Gospel.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53013

theology? i suppose my theology is church doctrine. if you want to know more about the doctrine, i would again suggest www.lds.org, because there is so much to say.

-but our over-arching belief, i guess, would be that our earthly lives are only a fraction of our existence. we existed before, and we will exist afterward with no end.

-there is more than just heaven and hell.

-Heavenly Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate beings unified in their purpose to "bring to pass the eternal life of man." I'm not sure where that phrase is found or if those are even the exact words, but that's the jist of it.


Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53016

Now let the endless and ultimately ineffectual Bible quoting from both sides begin!

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53021

halvertroy wrote: theology? i suppose my theology is church doctrine. if you want to know more about the doctrine, i would again suggest www.lds.org, because there is so much to say.

-but our over-arching belief, i guess, would be that our earthly lives are only a fraction of our existence. we existed before, and we will exist afterward with no end.

-there is more than just heaven and hell.

-Heavenly Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate beings unified in their purpose to "bring to pass the eternal life of man." I'm not sure where that phrase is found or if those are even the exact words, but that's the jist of it.

So you are still a Mormon, just out of practice?


Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53023

i am 100% a mormon. what makes you think otherwise? i said i'm not a practicing gay.

and i discourage bible bashing...but if someone out there really wants to, try a personal email instead of this public forum.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53025

Ohhh, I thought you meant you were a non-practicing Mormon. I got you now. Just misread your post.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53026

my bad. i could have been more clear. and we can move on to something else. i just wanted to inform the public about something that is so misunderstood. as in the popular belief that being gay is a choice.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53029

halvertroy wrote: i am 100% a mormon. what makes you think otherwise? i said i'm not a practicing gay.

and i discourage bible bashing...but if someone out there really wants to, try a personal email instead of this public forum.

Who said anything about Bible bashing?

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53036

i meant bible quoting...which could be the same thing.

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:2505, old post ID:53037

I see. I've been through similar 'discussions' as I'm ex-Mormon and no longer religious. I know how some folks like to jump all over Mormons for their beliefs, quoting this and that to prove how they're not Christian, and so on.

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