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Also, there is all this talk of Judgement in the Bible. Thing is, it's not really judgement if all you have to do to get into Heaven is believe that Christ is the Savior, regardless what you do in life. There's all this talk in the Bible of people being judged by their works, yet a lot of so-called Christians seem to think that's irrelevant.

In my book, any supposedly benevolent, merciful, and just God who gives salvation to those who really just amount to being his cronies is NOT any of the above. Instead, such a God is corrupt and truly careless of his children. A JUST God does not favor the unjust the same way he favors the just. I can't imagine how someone could really believe that God would give a scumbag 'saved' Christian exhaltation over someone (like a Catholic) who believes that in addition to accepting Christ's Atonement, they must be decent people in order to EARN that salvation. Because that's really what it is, right Bookworm? I mean, if a Catholic isn't a Christian, then they can't go to Heaven since they believe in a heresy, right?

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but we dont need to earn salvation, jesus already paid the price, he took the blame for all our sins, we just have to believe.

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Everybody clear your cards, we have a BINGO!



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Clueless wrote: but we dont need to earn salvation, jesus already paid the price, he took the blame for all our sins, we just have to believe.

then how can one be a true christian (christ-like)?

that logic makes zero sense.

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fragged one wrote:

Clueless wrote: but we dont need to earn salvation, jesus already paid the price, he took the blame for all our sins, we just have to believe.

then how can one be a true christian (christ-like)?

that logic makes zero sense.

we are christ-like because we believe, once we believe we are set apart from the rest, we have the holy spirit living in us now, we are G ods children. thats why he sent jesus to die for us. G od knew that none of us would ever be able to be perfect like jesus was, so jesus paid the price so that when we believe we become blameless, jesus washed our sins away so that we could get into heaven. believing is the only way. we cant always do good things after we get saved, it is human nature to sin, but that doesnt keep us from getting into heaven, we just dont get the blessings he had for us if we had done the right thing

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Looks like everyone's got some misconception about Catholicism, myself included. I emailed a Catholic for some more info on this subject and it looks like both sides of this discussion are incorrect about some things.

Here is what they said about works:

Works do not get you into heaven.  The grace of God gets a person to heaven through the merit of Christ Jesus alone.

With regards to Catholics worshipping Mary, they made the point that it is not 'worship', it is veneration, honor of the mother of Christ. Worship is for God alone. They also believe that even the dead can pray for those of us on the earth now and that they ask Mary to pray for them.

With regards to Red's statement about Confession:

What is commonly known as “confession” is called the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
18 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Also, as in the verse below, when Jesus breathed on the disciples (like when Adam had the breath of life breathed into him), he said the following:

John 20:21-23
21 (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Sins must be confessed to the disciples for them to be able to forgive them or retain them.  It is through the instrument, the priest, that God gives forgiveness.  The priest is simply his instrument on earth.

With regard to my misstatement about Catholics believing they must earn salvation:

This is a misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine.  Catholics believe they must do what God told them to do, not to “earn” anything, but because He is God.  Jesus himself told us to “do” many things and here are just a few:

Matthew 5:37-48

37 Let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes,' and your 'No' mean 'No.' Anything more is from the evil one.
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.
40 If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well.
41 Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?
48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I know this may not change anyone's mind, but in the interest of honest representation (and making arguments based on fact), I felt it was necessary to try and clear some things up.

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Clueless wrote: im a baptist christian. my parents are baptists so i grew up believing in god

But not in capitalizing it.

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The Gheyness wrote:

Clueless wrote: im a baptist christian. my parents are baptists so i grew up believing in god

But not in capitalizing it.

It

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Well, personally, I'm not entirely sure what faith I am, I know that I believe in god, I know that I believe in Jesus.....but In my opinion, they havn't done much to keep this world good and peaceful. Seems like if they can do anything then they should do something positive, not kill a bunch of people just to prove that they'll still be believed by everyone who already doess believe in them. In my opinion, God could stop a lot of things from happening with the snap of a finger, but why doesnt he, why won't he even attempt to stop this world from being the hell that it is? I would say there is no god, but then who created the universe, who created the stuff that caused the "big bang"? there is a god, but he sure doesnt seem to care about a whole lot of the species he created. Some would say, "It is our choices that make the world the way it is", that may be so, but it seems like got could at least maybe correct some of it without us suspecting something......To answer the question, I believe in God and Jesus, but I have no faith in them.......

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The Gheyness wrote:

Clueless wrote: im a baptist christian. my parents are baptists so i grew up believing in god

But not in capitalizing it.

I WiLl Do BeTtEr NeXt TiMe

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Listerlnx666 wrote: Well, personally, I'm not entirely sure what faith I am, I know that I believe in god, I know that I believe in Jesus.....but In my opinion, they havn't done much to keep this world good and peaceful. Seems like if they can do anything then they should do something positive, not kill a bunch of people just to prove that they'll still be believed by everyone who already doess believe in them. In my opinion, God could stop a lot of things from happening with the snap of a finger, but why doesnt he, why won't he even attempt to stop this world from being the hell that it is? I would say there is no god, but then who created the universe, who created the stuff that caused the "big bang"? there is a god, but he sure doesnt seem to care about a whole lot of the species he created. Some would say, "It is our choices that make the world the way it is", that may be so, but it seems like got could at least maybe correct some of it without us suspecting something......To answer the question, I believe in God and Jesus, but I have no faith in them.......

Actually he could stop it, unfortunatly he does not all the time. I guess everything happends for a reason.

Also, we can't forget. We want God out of our schools, so why should shootings and killing sprees be stopped? We want God out of our workplace, so why should he stop the plane from hitting a huge office building? We want God out of our law system, so why should he ensure proper order in law happenings?

But yea there is somet large scale things that are allowed to happen and innocents - ones who dont want God out of their lives, that do suffer. Unfortunatly this World is a rough ride even for Christians but it's only a blink of an eye compared to eternity in heaven. God also tends to throw problems at us to put us in the right track. We tend to forget to pray and read our Bible when everything is going great so sometimes an obsticle is needed.



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i have no problem with god in school...i just want to have a generalized spirituality class which talks about all of the world's major religions in their historical context.

the historical context of religion is something that ISN'T discussed enough, especially not in church.

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Stasi wrote: Looks like everyone's got some misconception about Catholicism, myself included.  I emailed a Catholic for some more info on this subject and it looks like both sides of this discussion are incorrect about some things.

Here is what they said about works:

Works do not get you into heaven.  The grace of God gets a person to heaven through the merit of Christ Jesus alone.

But how does a Catholic believe that the grace of God is applied to a person's life? From what I understand, the Catholics believe in a sacramental system in which the sacraments are the means by which grace is made effective in a person. From my perspective, having to participate in a sacrament in order to get God's grace is the same as doing a work in order to get God's grace.

With regards to Catholics worshipping Mary, they made the point that it is not 'worship', it is veneration, honor of the mother of Christ.

But is the actual practice of this veneration all that different from the practice of worship. It seems to me that Catholics are just trying to use a different word for the same thing. If worshipful practices are directed toward Mary, then I believe God would consider it worship, even if the Catholics try to call it by a different name.

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Red Squirrel wrote:

Listerlnx666 wrote: Well, personally, I'm not entirely sure what faith I am, I know that I believe in god, I know that I believe in Jesus.....but In my opinion, they havn't done much to keep this world good and peaceful. Seems like if they can do anything then they should do something positive, not kill a bunch of people just to prove that they'll still be believed by everyone who already doess believe in them. In my opinion, God could stop a lot of things from happening with the snap of a finger, but why doesnt he, why won't he even attempt to stop this world from being the hell that it is? I would say there is no god, but then who created the universe, who created the stuff that caused the "big bang"? there is a god, but he sure doesnt seem to care about a whole lot of the species he created. Some would say, "It is our choices that make the world the way it is", that may be so, but it seems like got could at least maybe correct some of it without us suspecting something......To answer the question, I believe in God and Jesus, but I have no faith in them.......

Actually he could stop it, unfortunatly he does not all the time. I guess everything happends for a reason.

Also, we can't forget. We want God out of our schools, so why should shootings and killing sprees be stopped? We want God out of our workplace, so why should he stop the plane from hitting a huge office building? We want God out of our law system, so why should he ensure proper order in law happenings?

But yea there is somet large scale things that are allowed to happen and innocents - ones who dont want God out of their lives, that do suffer. Unfortunatly this World is a rough ride even for Christians but it's only a blink of an eye compared to eternity in heaven. God also tends to throw problems at us to put us in the right track. We tend to forget to pray and read our Bible when everything is going great so sometimes an obsticle is needed.

damn, good point srry I said all that


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Red Squirrel wrote: Don't they also have a couple more books added to the Bible? 

Good works is good, and God wants us to do it, but it's not what you need to get to heaven.  No matter how nice we are, we are still sinners.

That's right. Your works don't get you into heaven.

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Red Squirrel wrote: Catholics are extremely close to being Christians in many ways, but they often miss the boat when it comes to why Jesus died on the cross.  They also believe they can get in heaven simply by good works.  Now that may sound great  but unfortunatly it does not work that way.

But it's probably very easy to direct a catholic in the right direction then someone who is in another religion or athiests.  Whenever I talk to someone who is catholic they agree with everything, so personaly I sometimes think that there's way more Christian catholics then I think.

I've been going to a Catholic school for nearly four years now, and I don't think that your idea of Catholicism is correct, Red.

There are plenty of things I don't like about Catholicism, don't get me wrong, but I spent a year going to Christian services regularly, and now attend Catholic mass about once a month in school, and they really are pretty much the same thing. While many Catholics may think they can get to heaven by doing good works, that's not what the Catholic church teaches. Catholics place a stronger emphasis on the Virgin Mary and the saints, and have a lot more rituals and "rules" than regular Christian denominations (which I personally feel take away from the core message of Catholicism, but it's not up to me, so meh), but other than that, there's really little difference. The message (as I see it) is the same: follow Christ, and try to live your life the way he lived his. While I've meet a LOT more Catholics who ignore this message than protestants, those who truly follow the Catholic faith are just Christians with a rosiary hanging in their car window.

As for me, I don't ally myself with any specific faith. I consider myself agnostic, if anything. I agree with a lot of what Christ taught, but I don't really agree with Christianity and its ideals as a whole (or maybe I just don't agree with the church, I dunno). I've been looking into Buddhism lately, but I'm not sure if I agree with that either. So for now I just have my set of beliefs, and I don't have a label for them. Which is fine by me.

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fragged one wrote: i have no problem with god in school...i just want to have a generalized spirituality class which talks about all of the world's major religions in their historical context. 

the historical context of religion is something that ISN'T discussed enough, especially not in church.

You have a very good point.

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Even though I am a christian, everyone has a free right to express their own religion without getting lashed out on. It gives a full understanding of everyone's situation.

There's always the thought that every religion is wrong, also. So, you never know what's true, and what isn't. (I'm a very obscene Christian =D)

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Shinizo wrote: Even though I am a christian, everyone has a free right to express their own religion without getting lashed out on. It gives a full understanding of everyone's situation.

There's always the thought that every religion is wrong, also. So, you never know what's true, and what isn't. (I'm a very obscene Christian =D)

Doesn't sound like you have much faith in what you 'believe' to be 'true'.

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Im not going to go into a huge amount of detail right now due a slightly non-clear brain from the meds.

I consider myself a Bible believing Christian (ie the Bible is the infalible word of God)... i do not clasify myself into any specific denomination. i believe in ONE God. i believe he sent his son Jesus (it doesn't matter if you use the english or spanish pronunciation, He is still the same) to be a sacrifice to die because he loved us and since God is perfect (holy) he cannot tolerate any sin. so for us to have a relationship with God we need to be cleansed of sin. We are not saved by works but by faith (as was pointed out with bookworm's "A,B" example)

i dont believe that if someone just claimes to be a christian, or goes to church and reads the bible, they are saved... those are just actions, i know plenty of people who are what i refer to as "sunday christians" living the "holy life" one day of every week. inversly, i also believe that church is not required to be a christian (i might even say that reading the Bible is not required to be a christian but i still need to sort some of this stuff out myself)
commenting on a theme of this thread, i think there are some catholics that are saved... but just as in other denominations, not all

but i start to get a little unclear in my beliefs because i don't believe in salvation by works.

i am open to discussion as any religion that isn't open to discussion (imho) isn't worth much because it then turns to legalism with beliefs that are inconsistant and can't be backed up. and think a true religion needs to be consistant, otherwise followers of the religion are hypocrites and are living a lie

i do not claim to know it all, and furthermore anyone who does... well they are laughable

hopefully this made some sense in spite of the meds

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andthebeast13 wrote: Im not going to go into a huge amount of detail right now due a slightly non-clear brain from the meds.

I know the feeling, but not from meds. I work nights and lately I've been getting poor sleep. Many days I go through like a zombie, with only a few hours of really being awake.

i dont believe that if someone just claimes to be a christian, or goes to church and reads the bible, they are saved... those are just actions, i know plenty of people who are what i refer to as "sunday christians" living the "holy life" one day of every week. inversly, i also believe that church is not required to be a christian (i might even say that reading the Bible is not required to be a christian but i still need to sort some of this stuff out myself)
commenting on a theme of this thread, i think there are some catholics that are saved... but just as in other denominations, not all

For me, this is what I've been trying to say - that faith without goodness is empty and worthless. Merely accepting Christ as the Savior getting a bad person into Heaven just doesn't compute. I have had bad experiences with Baptists who tried to pound into me as a Mormon (at the time) that I was going to burn in hell while they were going to be saved. These very people were liars, sychophants, and petty materialists, thus my extreme distaste for any belief system in which how one conducts oneself is not a central theme. If these people are who I'd be in Heaven with if I accepted their beliefs, then I'd rather go to hell. At least there I'd share in the company of genuinely good people who didn't accept, or even have the chance to accept such a corrupt nepotism. But I digress....

You say:

i am open to discussion as any religion that isn't open to discussion (imho) isn't worth much because it then turns to legalism with beliefs that are inconsistant and can't be backed up. and think a true religion needs to be consistant, otherwise followers of the religion are hypocrites and are living a lie

and...

I consider myself a Bible believing Christian (ie the Bible is the infalible word of God)...

These two statements are inconsistent. The problem is that there are numerous versions of the Bible, all with little differences. Also, whether it is the word of God or not, it was men who wrote them down. Men are not perfect. A perfect idea or concept can not pass through an imperfect mind and remain perfect.

Various passages in the Bible can be interpreted many different ways, hence the numerous denominations. If the Bible is the infallible, perfect word of God, then why is it so unclear what the true interpretation is supposed to be?

The Bible can not be backed up as Truth. It simply can't.

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Stasi wrote:
I know the feeling, but not from meds.  I work nights and lately I've been getting poor sleep.  Many days I go through like a zombie, with only a few hours of really being awake.

the frightening times are when you go through an entire day and can't remember a single event... while not on meds

Stasi wrote: For me, this is what I've been trying to say - that faith without goodness is empty and worthless.  Merely accepting Christ as the Savior getting a bad person into Heaven just doesn't compute.  I have had bad experiences with Baptists who tried to pound into me as a Mormon (at the time) that I was going to burn in hell while they were going to be saved.  These very people were liars, sychophants, and petty materialists, thus my extreme distaste for any belief system in which how one conducts oneself is not a central theme.  If these people are who I'd be in Heaven with if I accepted their beliefs, then I'd rather go to hell.  At least there I'd share in the company of genuinely good people who didn't accept, or even have the chance to accept such a corrupt nepotism.  But I digress...

it isn't my place to judge as to who will go to hell and who will be in heaven. that is ludicris that i have the authority to judge. i'll leave that to God. Christians are not perfect. we strive to be perfect, but get real, we are human. im not saying this as an excuse for my actions, but rather too not give a false portrayal of Christians. since we are not perfect, God sent his son to die on a cross as a sacrifice to pay for our sins. faith is believing and accepting that. actions are a lifestyle, Christianity literally means Christlike. so as Christians we strive to be like Christ. we fail frequently. but we have a merciful God who gives us a second chance time and again. but we are not saved by doing good deeds... faith is also needed. because the idea that one can do "enough" good to counteract the evil they do. God is the perfect and holy God. since he is holy, he can tolerate no sin. thus the need for a savior and for faith. does that mean we should use the mercy and have fun sinning?

Romans 6:1-4 wrote: what shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning that grace may increase?  By no means! We are born to sin; How can we live in it any longer? OR don't you know that all of us who were baptized into CHrist Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

so basically Christ dying and rising from the grave gives us the ability to not live in sin. Im not saying its easy though.
People are declared righteous by faith alone, but not by a faith that IS alone. Genuine faith will produce good deeds, but only faith in Christ saves.

James 2:14-18 wrote: What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? can such a faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "GO, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? in the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; i have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and i will show you my faith by what i do.

genuine faith saves, but it also has an effect of making the person with the faith to have the desire to do good.

im not sure i would go so far as to say i would rather go to hell...
thats a pretty strong statement... and i wouldn't say that hell would be filled with "genuinely good people"... im sure there would be others

Stasi wrote: These two statements are inconsistent.  The problem is that there are numerous versions of the Bible, all with little differences.  Also, whether it is the word of God or not, it was men who wrote them down.  Men are not perfect.  A perfect idea or concept can not pass through an imperfect mind and remain perfect.

Various passages in the Bible can be interpreted many different ways, hence the numerous denominations.  If the Bible is the infallible, perfect word of God, then why is it so unclear what the true interpretation is supposed to be?

alot of the "inconsistancys" in the Bible are from someone taking something out of context (i can quote the bible and say "vengence is mine, i will repay" and claim revenge is biblical, when in fact the context is "'Vengence is mine, I will repay' says the Lord" Hebrews 10:30)

some of the bibles are paraphrases... ie. they do not claim to be perfect but they were translated to the best of the translator's ability
also

2 Peter1:20&21 wrote: Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

im not sure how well i can explain this to you as i need to figure out some of this for myself... as i said i don't know it all( in spite of how well educated i may seem )

Stasi wrote: The Bible can not be backed up as Truth.  It simply can't.

what would you accept as proof?

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andthebeast13 wrote:

Stasi wrote:
The Bible can not be backed up as Truth.  It simply can't.

what would you accept as proof?

Proof is incontrovertible evidence. Show me some for Christianity and I'll believe. I know, I know, a person isn't supposed to ask for evidence, they're supposed to have faith.

But... why should I believe something I have no reason to believe? I have seen no evidence of God's hand at work. Should I believe because the Bible tells me so? Should I believe based on the 'burning in my bosom'? People have felt such faith that borders on sincere belief of fact in a number of religious systems, be they pagan or monotheistic. Therefore, the feeling can't be 'evidence'. If someone told you that if you believed in some book they present to you that you would go to Heaven, wouldn't you ask questions? Wouldn't you want to know why you should believe what they do instead of some other religious system? Religious belief is blind. It does not stand up against critical thought. Christianity can't be proven to be true. Therefore, why should anyone believe in it except that they were either raised to believe, or it makes life easier to tolerate?

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I respect the individuals choice to have a faith or religion. But personally, I think that faith and religion are the largest sources of hate and violence known to humanity. Reason being because people don't agree with others conflicting views and instead of accepting it, go totally off the ball and create un-necissary conflict.

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Sheridino wrote: But personally, I think that faith and religion are the largest sources of hate and violence known to humanity.

I think that humans are prone to hate and violence, and they will use whatever excuse they can find to display hate and violence. Faith is not the source of the hate.

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