Total Information Awareness

Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:13 am

Some of you may remember hearing about the DoD's Total Information Awareness System, started a few years ago with the purpose of gathering a variety of information about everyone, from travel to medical records and credit card purchases, so that those in the counter-terrorism business may ultimately find an algorithm of sorts to uncover terrorist cells and halt their ability to be 'on the grid' and plan attacks.

DARPA had another project called Lifelog that would do this and much more, capturing information on what a person watches, eats, reads, etc.

While both projects have been officially killed, with certain elements of both projects continuing on with new names and purposes, the concept is interesting, though, unfortunately with a massive potential for abuse.

Here's the question, if such a project as TIA or Lifelog were put into place, used, and actually could successfully foil terrorist plots, domestically, and even abroad, would the security benefit outweigh the risk to personal privacy?

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:22 am

Well, if it actually did foil terrorist plots, then I guess I would rather be alive than private. I would wonder if the information could be used for other things than just foiling terrorists.

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Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:06 am

On e thing I've always found when something like this is suggested. Some people seems to take it personally, as if their records will be singled out and the CIA will sit around drinking coffee giggling while reading it.

If the government were to do this, then they would be looking at over 200 million differant records (I think) so there would be no more then a glance or a search done.

So, I guess I wouldnt really have a problem with it once it wasnt done for any other reasons. Like the saying goes, you've nothing to worry about if you've nothing to hide.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:47 am

We're talking records for at least every citizen of this country, which is around 300 million, not to mention the fact that, at least with Lifelog, you'd have a database with billions or trillions of entries.

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Shinizo · Post by **Shinizo** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:54 am

They needta have a database for every word I say. That would've put them out of business early on.

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Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:11 pm

Stasi wrote: We're talking records for at least every citizen of this country, which is around 300 million, not to mention the fact that, at least with Lifelog, you'd have a database with billions or trillions of entries.

Wow, America's bigger then I last heard. So really, this idea is impractical unless they were able to figure what your average terrorists eats for breakfast and do some sort of search then.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:33 pm

Yes, Lifelog was definitely a blue-sky project not realistically destined for real world utilization, but the concept of a massive database that gives those who have access to it near-omniscience is fascinating to me. Especially when such a project is geared towards domestic monitoring, one has to worry about the abuse implications. Great power can be used for great good or atrocity.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:56 pm

Going along with the end of what you said, I don't really have a problem with these sorts of this, as long as there are proper safeguards, or 'checks' on the system. It seems that's always the issue. The Patriot Act is a good example; I agree with most of the things in there, but there is one section that allows officers to search your place without your approval or a subpoena. The point of a subpoena is that a judge give authority, based on evidence presented, if officer X has enough of a case to get this evidence now. When you bypass that, there is no safeguard and anyone can be deemed a terrorist and dealt with as such.

I don't have a problem with them collecting information on things I do in public for the greater good, but without safeguards, the probability of atrocity increase to levels that are not acceptable to me.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:39 pm

I think it could work and would be for good, but I could see that start a huge protest or what not. I would be weary of it, but from a goverment's point of view sometimes you have to go to extremes to stop terrorists.

I don't know why they stopped using carnivore though as it was made for tracking online activity of potential terrorist activities. Maybe it did not work out or something, but at least it was limited to online, and not personal stuff like what you buy, etc.

I could see that being abused.

Ex: let's say I go to the store and buy some fireworks (can't do that here, not sure about the states though) just for pleasure use at camp, then I realize I need a new battery for the boat, so go and get one, and fill all my friend's propane tanks while I'm there.

That would probably get pickedup as terrorist activity because why would someone buy fireworks, a battery, and propane in the same day?

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:46 pm

Red Squirrel wrote: That would probably get pickedup as terrorist activity because why would someone buy fireworks, a battery, and propane in the same day?

I think it would have to be more than just those three things that would trigger an alert. Now if you had called some Pakistani friends the same day and did a Google search for nuclear power plants, that might do it.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:05 am

Red Squirrel wrote: I don't know why they stopped using carnivore though as it was made for tracking online activity of potential terrorist activities. Maybe it did not work out or something, but at least it was limited to online, and not personal stuff like what you buy, etc.

The FBI said they discontinued Carnivore because there are product from the private sector they can use to accomplish what they need to.

As for the use of the TIA, the idea is to find a signature that could be used to profile terrorists successfully. Which, I would think, would take some time to develop.

As for the purchase you mention, Red, it could get you flagged, I don't know. They did a limited experiment with a TIA prototype that looked at the sale of propane, fertilizer, and other products that can be associated with bombmaking, and the effort was to accurately determine who was a farmer, using it all legitimately, and who wasn't. As I recall, there was some success. You have to figure there are a lot of variables going into such a profile, which is why such a database would need to capture a variety of information on a variety of activities to be useful.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much should such a project go live. First off, the fact that we knew about these projects while they were still in the labs is good and fairly ensures that once such a thing went live, it would have only done so after proper checks and balances being put into place as well as an oversight group. Also, the sheer size and scope of either TIA or Lifelog would simply make it not worth the gov't's time to snoop on people it has no business snooping on. Think about it, you'd have militia members, certain types of ciminals, known members of foreign intelligence services, and current suspects of terrorist activity or membership under the microscope. So, if you're not affiliated with any one of those circumstances, you probably wouldn't have anything to worry about... even less so with Lifelog, which would have been much larger in scope.

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:17 am

Yeah true so changes of getting snooped on wrongfully are quite slim.

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OLKMED · Post by **OLKMED** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:47 am

i don't really have anything to hide and don't plan on giving myself anything to be ashamed of, but i could see it leading to extremes and a lot of abuse. first this then it's all 1984 style.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:29 pm

Yes, but just about any technology or personal information gathering, when its application is taken to extremes, could be abused in a manner approaching Orwellian. The counterweight is in the public's demand for oversight and responsible use.

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