Heavenly Thoughts

[Stasi]

As far as whether the Christian God is the same as the God of Islam or Judaism, the answer lies in how each religion views Jesus Christ. The Christian God has a Son named Jesus who was sent to be the Messiah and who died on the cross for the sins of the world. Islam does not consider Christ to be God's son, and neither do the Jews. If one God has a Son and the other Gods do not, then they cannot be the same God. At least that's how I view it. I'm sure someone will disagree.

My point is that all three religious groups worship the god of Abraham, thus, they worship the same god. Muslims and Jews understand that. Whether they all agree on whether or not he had a son is beside the point - that is where the critical difference in their beliefs come into play.

God's Son is not beside the point. The God of Abraham sent His Son to earth. If a group claims to worship the God of Abraham, and then describes Him in a different way than who He actually is, they cannot be worshiping the same God. A very similar God, but not the same one.

In the typical Christian mannerism to be as exclusionary as possible, Christ as God's son is not beside the point.

Look, according the Christians, God sent His son, Christ to earth as humankind's savior - well, actually only those lucky enough to be born in the right place at the right time. The people who believe this are called Christians because they believe they can only return to the presence of the Father by accepting the atonement of the Son. Jews don't believe Christ was such a person, and neither do the Muslims.

Because they disagree with the Christians as to whether or not so-and-so is God's son doesn't mean that when they talk about that 'god' they are talking about different beings.

Let me use an analogy...

Let's say we're back in the Roman Empire ca. 100AD.

There is a man named Titus who lives in Rome.
A woman claims to have had a son by Titus, but it can not be proven such that no one can deny the evidence when it's presented. There are two groups of Titus' servants - one that believes that Titus is the father and one that doesn't. Despite their disagreement as to who the child's father is, when either group refers to serving Titus, they are referring to the same person.

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[Bookworm]

There is a man named Titus who lives in Rome.
A woman claims to have had a son by Titus, but it can not be proven such that no one can deny the evidence when it's presented.  There are two groups of Titus' servants - one that believes that Titus is the father and one that doesn't.  Despite their disagreement as to who the child's father is, when either group refers to serving Titus, they are referring to the same person.

But suppose Titus claimed the child even though there was no proof. One group of servants would believe that Titus was the father. The other group would be calling Titus a liar, and would be going around claiming to serve a childless Titus, even though a childless Titus did not exist.

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[Red Squirrel]

Is it just me or is God trying to tell us something with those ads on top?

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[Stasi]

There is a man named Titus who lives in Rome.
A woman claims to have had a son by Titus, but it can not be proven such that no one can deny the evidence when it's presented.  There are two groups of Titus' servants - one that believes that Titus is the father and one that doesn't.  Despite their disagreement as to who the child's father is, when either group refers to serving Titus, they are referring to the same person.

But suppose Titus claimed the child even though there was no proof. One group of servants would believe that Titus was the father. The other group would be calling Titus a liar, and would be going around claiming to serve a childless Titus, even though a childless Titus did not exist.

Yet Titus the being does exist and it is this being that both groups serve. There are not multiple Titus-beings, just one, although there is disagreement on certain things.

What you're trying to argue is that while multiple people worship the same God, any deviation in belief between the groups means that among the different groups, there are multiple Gods. Liken this to reality. The fact is, people can have very different impressions of any single person, yet when they reference the individual, they are referencing the very same one. It's like a two-faced celebrity who may seem charming and wonderful in public, but may be a complete jerk in private. Amongst those people who are familiar perhaps only with one of either side, when they talk about the individual in question, it would be ludicrus to say that they're referencing different people, yet you, and others, do that with God. You assert that despite the fact that different groups explicitly worship the God of Abraham, the differences in their beliefs toward that God mean that they don't worship the same God. It doesn't make any sense to me.

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[shenbaw]

Hmm, so God might choose to be lienient to those who were born in the wrong place or at the wrong time? That's good. At least he/she is understanding. So, if heaven is "being in the presence of God" and there are "various degrees of reward up in heaven," does that mean that people who have never heard of Jesus will have some kind of visitation schedule or something? Or will they just be in limbo, not in heaven, not in hell...  just somewhere. Ghosts perhaps?

And what do you and the Bible say to those who choose to worship a different God??? One without a son perhaps? Like a person born into a Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist family or area of the world. Will those people be rewarded or punished? After all, their entire life is one big defiance of the first commandment right? Thou shalt not have any other gods before me. All those kind, loving, peaceful buddhists who spend their lives benefitting other individuals and their community. What would you say to them?

John 14:6 says, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

That's about the biggest cop-out I've ever heard.

Someone asks you a difficult question about the obvious moral and ethical worth of people of other faiths and how one could justify denying these good, loving people an eternity of contentment and you reply with "Because the Bible says so?"

Give me a break.

If you don't know, just say you don't know. Don't pretend like quoting what the Bible says is some kind of argument for it's validation. The mere fact that the Bible says, "You should only worship through this book and no other" doesn't in any way explain how condemning a good, kind, loving, and caring person to an eternity of being in the absense of God is justified. (which is what not being in heaven is, whether it be hell or some other "level" of reward)

But, as I mentioned before, this is another major gripe I have with organized religion, particularly christianity. You act like the Bible provides you with the answers to everything when it doesn't. It simply provides you with a scape-goat and a justification for your beliefs whenever you don't want to think about something difficult.

I wanted you to tell me why a person born into a Buddhist or Muslim family who grows up and becomes a monk or a priest and spends his life benefitting others deserves to live out eternity "without God?" Don't tell me where in the Bible it says this is so. Tell me why the Bible says that it is so. I already know that the Bible says the only way to get to heaven is through the Bible. That's why I asked the question in the first place. I want to know why the Bible says this and how a loving God can rightly hold people responsible for things that are well beyond the rhelm of their control. As Stasi pointed out, where and to whom we are born is something none of us have control over. It would seem unjust for God to punish people (or deny them a blissful ever-after) for growing up believing the things they were brought up to believe, would it not?

This whole one vs. multiple Gods debate is absolutely asinine. Bookworm, how many Gods do you worship? One, right? How many Gods does a Jew worship? One, right? How many Gods does a Muslim worship? Yup, One again. Obviously the practitioners of these religions are going to argue day and night that they do not worship the same God, since they all assert superiority and correctness over the other, but to a person who does not dedicate themself to any one of these particular faiths, they're all going to look like they're worshipping the same God. (the only one true and everlasting God that there is, "God") To a person who believes in one or the other, the differences are huge and the similarities are a small peice of ancient history. To someone who does not, the similarities are huge and the differences are just technicalities. Why would someone who doesn't believe in any particular faith claim correctness or superiority of one over another? They have nothing to gain by doing so. Obviously someone who practices Christianity, or Islam, is going to agrue up and down that they worship a different God than that other guy because their's is the right religion while the other guy's is the wrong one. It has nothing to do with whether or not there are fundamental differences between one religions God and another. It has to do with the fact that one religion makes the assertion that the other religions are wrong, that makes it fundamentally different than the others.

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[Bookworm]

Don't tell me where in the Bible it says this is so. Tell me why the Bible says that it is so. I already know that the Bible says the only way to get to heaven is through the Bible. That's why I asked the question in the first place. I want to know why the Bible says this and how a loving God can rightly hold people responsible for things that are well beyond the rhelm of their control.

I already understand that you do not accept the authority of the Bible. What you want is an explanation of God that will satisfy your human frame of thinking in terms of how you think a God should act. God is God, and we are humans, and we can't apply our frame of thinking to God. Isaiah 55:8,9 says, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." And you are probably going to consider me quoting that Bible verse to be a cop-out. Oh well. We'll just have to disagree on that. Feel free to respond to this if you want, but then I'll probably step back for a while. I don't want to just keep repeating the same stuff except in different words.

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[shenbaw]

What you want is an explanation of God that will satisfy your human frame of thinking in terms of how you think a God should act. God is God, and we are humans, and we can't apply our frame of thinking to God. Isaiah 55:8,9 says, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

That would all be fine and good if we humans didn't have any idea of what the words "fair" or "just" meant. The explanation I'm looking for doesn't revolve around how I think a God should act. It revolves around what God claims to be in the Bible. That is a just God and one that will do no iniquities.

There are many other verses in the good book that speak to God being a fair and just judge as I'm sure you are aware. A God who punishes people for the family they are born into or the geographic location of their birth is neither of these things. A God who is willing to punish people and deny them access to "heaven" for believing what they were brought up to believe is right, is not a God that can claim to be just. This is according to the Bible, not me. What I am looking for, is an explanation of how a fair and just God can deny fundamentally good people, people who spend their whole lives devoted to worshipping and praising their "God" access to the greatest reward ever offered? How can God look at a Muslim and say, "You know, you were a great person. You listened to your parents and the things they taught you, were never mean to anyone, and spent your life trying to help others and better understand your religion. But, it's too bad you were born in Iran and to a Muslim family cause I'm God not Allah! Off you go! Say Hi to Satan for me." If you can tell me how, by any stretch of the imagination, a "just" God who can do no iniquity would be capable of such things, I will be satisfied.<!--QuoteBegin-Bookworm] And you are probably going to consider me quoting that Bible verse to be a cop-out.

Yup. Why? Cause it doesn't get at the question of why these people deserve to burn in hell or live out eternity in the absense of God. Only that they deserve it. Do you really not see the difference???

Oh well. We'll just have to disagree on that. Feel free to respond to this if you want, but then I'll probably step back for a while. I don't want to just keep repeating the same stuff except in different words.

I don't think you have much of a choice here Bookie. You have no reason or explanation for your belief other than the words written in that book. You don't know why "good" people don't get to go to "heaven." (good muslims or good jews) You don't know why "bad" people do get to go to heaven. (bad televangelists or child molesting priests and the like) Only that the Bible says so, and that's good enough for you. That's fine. I just wish you would lay it out like that, rather than acting like I'm the one who isn't "getting it" by quoting the scriptures. I'm well aware of what they say. Are you aware of what I'm saying?

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[Bookworm]

Of course I am aware of what you are saying. You are saying that if the Bible tells us that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, then the Bible must be lying. We happen to disagree on whether or not the Bible is lying. And God doesn't judge people for being born into a particular family, God judges people for rejecting Him. Romans 1:20 says, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." And I would like you to show me where I have claimed bad people like child-molesting priests would get to heaven. I have said that when a person truly accepts Christ, then the actions of their life will reflect Jesus Christ. That certainly doesn't describe a chil-molesting priest.

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[shenbaw]

Of course I am aware of what you are saying. You are saying that if the Bible tells us that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, then the Bible must be lying. We happen to disagree on whether or not the Bible is lying. And God doesn't judge people for being born into a particular family, God judges people for rejecting Him.

I suppose I did say that the Bible is lying. But I didn't say about what. I'm basically saying there are two options. Either the Bible is lying about Christianity being the only way to get to heaven or else the Bible is lying about God being a fair and just god. I think the part I underlined above is really the key to all of this. Your idea of "rejecting" God is one of two things. Either not believing in God all together, or believing in some God other than the Christian God. Right? So if someone is born into a particularly Muslim family, and gets brought up in a particularly Muslim household and culture, and lives their life as a devout Muslim, they in essense have "rejected God" according to you and the Christian Bible. Correct? So in essense, God would be punishing people for the family they are born into and the culture they are brought up in since that is what ultimately led to their "rejecting God" or them practicing a religion other than Christianity. Please correct where my logic has faultered in there. Cause what I think you are failing to recognize is that a person who is born, raised, and lives their life as a devoted, whole-hearted practicing Jew or Muslim or whatever, has never once in their life rejected the God they were brought up to believe in. They've simply never bought into the God your religion says they should believe in. What sin have they committed by believing in what their parents taught them to believe? How have they ever "rejected God?" They haven't. They've simply embraced a different idea of "God" than what you have. It's not their fault that they were born and brought up to believe in something you consider to be incorrect, nor is it "just" or "right" to punish these people for conditions or circumstances of their upbringing that they have no control over and have never had any control over. Consequently, the way I see it, we have two options for where the falsehood lies in the Bible. Either,

A. Christianity really isn't the one and only way to reach heaven or attain God's eternal company, or
B. God really isn't a fair, just and righteous God who can commit no iniquities.

Again, please point out where my inconsistencies lie.

And I would like you to show me where I have claimed bad people like child-molesting priests would get to heaven. I have said that when a person truly accepts Christ, then the actions of their life will reflect Jesus Christ. That certainly doesn't describe a chil-molesting priest.

Unless he repents for the sins he has committed, as I'm sure they all spend plenty of time doing when they're behind bars.

You didn't Bookworm, I guess I was more refering to Red's idea of "All it takes is to ask Jesus into your heart and ask for forgiveness and you're saved." That was an extreme example, but basically, there are alot of "bad" Christians out there who according to you will get priority in heaven over millions of "good" people of other faiths, simply because they are of another faith. That doesn't sound very "just."

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[Bookworm]

That doesn't sound very "just."

I think this is where your inconsistency lies. Your concept of "justice" seems to be that God should take anyone who worships anything up to heaven as long as they live in a way the world describes as "good." That's not what the Bible says however, about getting to heaven. And if I have to choose between what God says and what a human's concept is, I will choose what God says.
I will do some research regarding what Baptist theologians have to say about the points you have brought up. I have never claimed to be a scholar, and your points are not unreasonable things to ask questions about.

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[shenbaw]

just - adj.
1.Honorable and fair in one's dealings and actions: a just ruler.

Perhaps it's far too presumptuous of me to assume that the Bible's use of the word is meant to be the same as ours. Wouldn't want to interpret the Bible too literally now would we?

Anyway, it just doesn't seem honorable or "fair" to condemn someone for believing what they were brought up to believe. Or to judge someone as having had "rejected" God when all they've ever done is "loved" God, it just happened to be the wrong one.

I guess I don't care if you want to call it "just" or "fair" or whatever...

It's not "right" no matter what you call it.

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[Bookworm]

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary
of Biblical Theology

Justice [N] [T] [E]

(Heb. sedeq [q,d,x], mispat [f'P.vim]; Gk. dikaiosyne [dikaiosuvnh]). God, the Righteous Judge. Justice is rooted in the very nature of God (Isa 40:14). He evenhandedly rewards good, and he does not ignore the sins of any (Psalm 33:5; 37:6, 28; 97:2; 99:4). Human judges do well to remember God in their courts. God does not take bribes (Deut 10:17) or pervert justice in any way (Gen 18:25; 2 Chron 19:7).

At the same time, God rarely delivers instant justice. The world does not seem fair while evil still abounds, and so the oppressed petition God to intervene on their behalf (Psalm 7:9; Prov 29:26). Their prayers may even take the form of a complaint (Hab 1:2-4), although people must not challenge God's essential justice (Job 40:8; Mal 2:17). That God will decisively intervene in the future is the biblical hope.

This philosophical issue of theodicy underlies the story of Job. On the one hand is his friends' false assumption that Job's trouble must fit his crimes (8:3-7), whereas on his part, Job claims to be the victim of an injustice, and demands that God remedy the situation (19:7; 27:2; 29:14; 34:5-6).

The justice of God is reaffirmed in the New Testament (Rom 3:5-6; 9:14; 1 John 1:9; Rev 16:5-7; 19:11). Because he is just, God never shows partiality or favoritism (Matt 5:45; Acts 10:34-35; Rom 2:6, 11; Eph 6:9; 1 Peter 1:17).

Human Justice Based on God's Law. Just law is law that reflects God's standards (Gen 9:5-6; Deut 1:17), and not mere human reasoning (Hab 1:7). According to the Sinai covenant, judges are to uphold the Mosaic law by acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty. A breach of justice consists of a verdict that runs contrary to the law or that does not accord with the known facts (Exod 23:1-9; Deut 25:1-3).

In a culture where judges, not juries, render a verdict, false accusations, bribery, and influence peddling are the favored devices of injustice (Deut 16:18-20; 1 Sam 8:3; Prov 17:23; 19:28; Isa 5:23; Jer 5:28; Ezek 22:29; Amos 2:6-7; Zech 7:9-10). The victims are disproportionately from the poor, among whom are the fatherless, the widow, and the resident alien (Deut 27:19; Psalm 82). The righteous judge must never show partiality to the rich (Deu 24:17), nor for that matter to the poor (Lev 19:15); he must render true judgment at all times.

Under the monarchy, the king is the final arbiter of justice (2 Sam 8:15; 15:3-4; 1 Kings 10:9; Prov 20:8). Kings are warned about injustice (Prov 16:10; Jer 21:12; 22:2-3; Micah 3:1-3, 9-11). Solomon's wisdom makes him a just king (1 Kings 3:11-12, 28; 2 Chron 9:8).

At the same time, justice is not a virtue for judges and kings alone; all Israel is to follow in the "paths of justice" (Gen 18:19; Psalm 106:3; Prov 21:15; Isa 1:17, 59). Pursuing justice in life is of greater worth than religious ritual (Prov 21:3; Micah 6:8; cf. Matt 23:23). Justice must lead to honesty, even in mundane business transactions (Lev 19:35-36; Hosea 12:7).

In the New Testament, the love of justice is a virtue (2 Col 7:11; Php 4:8), yet Christians may not take justice into their own hands (1 Thess 4:6). At times it is better to suffer injustice than to bring the gospel into disrepute by taking a brother to court (1 Cor 6:7-8).

Divine Justice and the Justification of the Wicked. The gospel promises escape from God's just wrath against sin (Rom 1:32). Before human judges the Savior was unjustly tried and executed (Isa 53:8; John 7:24; Acts 3:14). From the divine perspective, however, Jesus' death satisfied God's justice (Rom 3:26). Thus God remains a righteous judge even as he justifies those sinners who believe in Christ (Luke 18:14; Gal 3:11-13).

Justice and the Kingdom of God. The Old Testament looks forward to the time when God will exercise absolute justice over all creation (Psalm 98:9; Eccl 3:16; Isa 28:5-6; 29:19-21). The New Testament emphasizes the approach of final judgment, when all people will be evaluated according to their works (Rom 2:5; 3:5-6; Rev 20:13).

Psalm 72 is a prayer for a king who would protect the poor, a psalm that looks beyond Solomon to an ideal just king. The Old Testament goes on to predict that the Messiah will execute justice on God's behalf (Isa 9:7; 11:3-4; 16:4b-5; 28:17). In the New Testament, Jesus already begins to carry out the Father's justice while on earth (Matt 12:18-21; John 5:28-30), but it is in the future that he will execute God's will over all (Acts 17:31; Rev 19:11).

Gary Steven Shogren

See also Justification;Righteousness


I figured if you could post a definition, so could I.

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[shenbaw]

Yeah, I figured something like that was coming.

"Fairness and justice in the Bible are not the same as what people know fairness and justice to be. Fairness and Justice in the Bible only refers to fairness and justice according to the laws and standards laid out by God in the Bible, not by man. Therefore, if something seems to be "unfair" or "unjust" in the Bible that is because you do not know what fairness or justice even are."

Good day.

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[Red Squirrel]

The problem with allot of non-believers is that they think God sends people to hell. God doe snot send people to hell, but simply lets them go where they want - he does not interfeer with freewill. unfortunatly, lot of people choose hell over heaven. I have no clue why, but they do.

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[Bookworm]

The problem with allot of non-believers is that they think God sends people to hell.  God doe snot send people to hell, but simply lets them go where they want - he does not interfeer with freewill.  unfortunatly, lot of people choose hell over heaven.  I have no clue why, but they do.

Red, the difference between God sending a person to Hell and allowing them to go there is a theological distinction that one shouldn't expect a nonbeliever to see. And if you have no clue about something, perhaps you shouldn't try expressing it. You only end up setting yourself up.

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[erolyn]

This all reminds me of this webcomic:
http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/comics/irreg0727.jpg

You don't mind if I use one 'o the pics from that site for my sig, do you?


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[sintekk]

Sure, go ahead, if I can use a White Ninja comic panel in my sig, you can use the lego thingy in your sig too!

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[000]

2 goldfish were discussing Mythology.
The discussion ended when a goldfish replied:
"There MUST be a God, who changes the water?"



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[OLKMED]

I've wondered the same at times, but I have no clue how I will think in heaven, for example will I have the urge to build the most powerful computer etc...  But my guess is that once were in heaven which will be sinless and perfect we won't want to do all the things we want to do here, we'll simply want to be with God and have fellowship.  From the point of view of someone on Earth it sounds that it would be boring after a while but I have faith in God that it won't be, once I'm there since emotions and feelings will be completely different. 

Though I think I miss understood parts of revelations since it was talking about heaven being 15,000 miles long and width and have 12 storeys made of certains types of material but I always picked heaven as being huge with no actual limits.  But it did speak of the streets of gold etc...    Since if heaven has a limited size, that means it will be quite crowded. 

doesn't changing what we have thought was important and what we love once we die, cheapen our existence here on earth?
I mean what we have here is pretty darn nice, we have the power to govern ourselves alomost any way we want, we can strive to be the best businessman, an astronaut or to do nothing, and it's (more or less) all up to us. When we go to heaven, will any of this matter? I don't like the idea of turning into an episode of peasantville once i die.

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[shenbaw]

This all reminds me of this webcomic:
http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/comics/irreg0727.jpg

You don't mind if I use one 'o the pics from that site for my sig, do you?

That's great!!!

I didn't see that one before.

Now the Bible is the authority on dress-codes too, eh?

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[OLKMED]

If a Christian wishes to lead others to the Lord, then that Christian must build bridges with the unsaved. The Christian's life must be one which reflects the love of Jesus Christ in such a way that an unsaved person will think, "I want what that person has in his life." Red doesn't seem to be radiating Christ very well in the way that he posts. As for your explanation of salvation, Shenbaw, you are willing to tell Red what salvation is not, but then you come up with your own explanation of salvation. How do you know yours is true?

How do you know yours is true? Because the Bible tells you so? Ancient texts tell a lot of people a lot things, many of which can't be empirically disproven. So, then, on what basis do you view your beliefs as being more true than another's?

The trouble I have with this whole salvation thing that you guys put forth is that to receive it, one must accept Christ. That leaves out massive amounts of the world's population of decent, caring people, many of whom, who, throughout history never even heard of Christ. To be honest, I care nothing for a belief system that claims to involve a supposedly merciful, just God who rewards people not on the basis of the quality of how they conduct themselves towards humanity, but only on whether or not they accept Christ in their hearts.

You do realize that the Christian God is the same as the God of Islam and Judaism, right? What makes Christianity more 'true' than either one of those branches of faith?

I really like this post by Stasi good thoughts

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[OLKMED]

The problem with allot of non-believers is that they think God sends people to hell.  God doe snot send people to hell, but simply lets them go where they want - he does not interfeer with freewill.  unfortunatly, lot of people choose hell over heaven.  I have no clue why, but they do.

Red, the difference between God sending a person to Hell and allowing them to go there is a theological distinction that one shouldn't expect a nonbeliever to see. And if you have no clue about something, perhaps you shouldn't try expressing it. You only end up setting yourself up.

I think what red is saying here is that people have the choice to go to heaven or hell by making the right decisions while here on earth that will lead them in the direction they want to go. I'm sure that red doesn't have "no clue" and he seems to have some knowlege as to how Christianity works, but it seems like you're really getting worked up over details here.

And you can't really talk about non-believers like that because i'm sure the writings of the bible (even in the same type of religion) are viewed in different ways in different parts of the country and in different churches, because the place most people get their info from is the preacher. Most people don't go out of their way to read the bible outside of church (at least now a WHOLE lot anyway).

Archived topic from Anythingforums, old topic ID:1683, old post ID:23102

[Bookworm]

The problem with allot of non-believers is that they think God sends people to hell.  God doe snot send people to hell, but simply lets them go where they want - he does not interfeer with freewill.  unfortunatly, lot of people choose hell over heaven.  I have no clue why, but they do.

Red, the difference between God sending a person to Hell and allowing them to go there is a theological distinction that one shouldn't expect a nonbeliever to see. And if you have no clue about something, perhaps you shouldn't try expressing it. You only end up setting yourself up.

I think what red is saying here is that people have the choice to go to heaven or hell by making the right decisions while here on earth that will lead them in the direction they want to go. I'm sure that red doesn't have "no clue" and he seems to have some knowlege as to how Christianity works, but it seems like you're really getting worked up over details here.

And you can't really talk about non-believers like that because i'm sure the writings of the bible (even in the same type of religion) are viewed in different ways in different parts of the country and in different churches, because the place most people get their info from is the preacher. Most people don't go out of their way to read the bible outside of church (at least now a WHOLE lot anyway).

Thanks for pointing out that I sounded a bit harsh to Red. I should have left out that "no clue" line.

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