Where I stand

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:49 am

Sure, I joined here and we lived in peace for a while. Unrest seems to follow wherever I go, however. Let me tell you a little story about my legacy.

Long ago there was a forum called the Weebl and Bob forum. It was a happy place, and Will lived there in harmony with most. Some did not like him very much though, but most tolerated his views. Will stayed for a while untill he sparked an enormous arguement purely by stating his views on the world and a few people were banned, William included. Distraught and annoyed William searched for a Forum about Anything and found here.

And that is how I have come here.

I have joined many forums since then and been banned following whenever I speak from my point of view. I have all the right to say most "people" are closed minded because of this, mostly because these "people" cannot stomach reality and the gritty side of life. They choose to stop their ears and refuse to even listen to my point of view, a view shared by many others.

People say that I am a millitaristic, violent person and that I am hypocritical. Surely such words need not be used in simple debate. You folk claim to be openminded yet try to silence me when I speak. If you disagree with me fine, by all means. However resorting to namecalling and walking away will not gain respect fro me of any kind. I would prefer that I be left to my own opinion rather than be harried for carrying my own thoughts. This kind of smothering angers me greatly and has caused a rift betwixt myself and others on here.

So I say this: continue to dance in your happy little circle pretending all is well. I have no problem with that. Just don't try to convince me of that too.

Discuss.

---------------------------------------
There's a shadow just behind me,
shrouding every step I take,
making every promise empty,
pointing every finger at me.
Waiting like a stalking butler
who upon the finger rests.
Murder now the path called "must we"
just before the son has come.
Jesus, won't you

whistle
something but the past and done?
Jesus, won't you

whistle
Something but the past and done?

Why can't we not be sober?
I just want to start this over.
Why can't we drink forever.
I just want to start this over.

I am just a worthless liar.
I am just an imbecile.
I will only complicate you.
Trust in me and fall as well.
I will find a center in you.
I will chew it up and leave,
I will work to elevate you
just enough to bring you down.
Mother Mary won't you whisper
something but the past and done.
Mother Mary won't you whisper
something but the past and done.

Why can't we not be sober?
I just want to start this over.
Why can't we sleep forever.
I just want to start this over.

I am just a worthless liar.
I am just an imbecile.
I will only complicate you.
Trust in me and fall as well.
I will find a center in you.
I will chew it up and leave,

Trust me. Trust me. Trust me. Trust me. Trust Me
.

Why can't we not be sober?
I just want to start this over.
Why can't we sleep forever.
I just want to start this over.

I want what I want.
I want what I want.
I want what I want.
I want what I want.

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:24 am

Will, one of the reasons people react so negatively to some of your discussions is that sometimes you're just as close-minded, self-righteous, and stubborn as you accuse others of being. You're right, some people can't stomach reality, and it goes both ways. Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe you don't have much more of a solid grasp of reality than those stereotypical flag-waving, nationalist, my-country-is-better-than-all-your-countries-so-there types of Americans. Have you ever stopped to consider that there is plenty of bullshit from every side of the political spectrum and opinion since we're all human and subject to such human mental frailties as the desire to find a comfort zone in a belief system whether it's true or not?

You go on about how it's bad that people resort to namecalling when faced with opinions they don't agree with. You're guilty of that just as much as anyone here.

You seem to go into every discussion with the stubborn attitude that you're right and no one else who has a differing position could possibly be. You talk like you value "open-mindedness" but you're quite close-minded. Maybe you should engage in some critical thinking about more than just the things you don't want to agree with.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:49 am

+1

You folk claim to be openminded yet try to silence me when I speak. If you disagree with me fine, by all means. However resorting to namecalling and walking away will not gain respect from me of any kind.

No one has ever silenced you, but tried to get you to be respectful of others opinions. However, namecalling, and then walking away not addressing the issues, you do have a monolpoly on. I doubt anyone here cares if they gain your respect, for you have in no way tried to give that respect to anyone else, we treat you by the golden rule, as you treat everyone else.

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:04 pm

I agree with Stasi's post and just to add my 2 cents

Will I don't thin anyone has any real problem with your "views" We in fact encourage you to express them in funny ways with an underlying seriousness with which a person can truly sit and contemplate their view.

The the unnessicarily forcefull and hatefull way which you express yourself that people have a real problem with. You ascribe to a lot of very extreme view points in some areas but, there are people who I feel have equally narrow minded views on the opposite side of yours who also frequent this forum. I have told them so on as many occasions as I've told you.

I think there are people at this forum who have ADD when it comes to reading posts. It gets glossed over and the true point never gets to come across because it was never read in context thus the reply is allways flawed.

Will If you want to post here, post here all you like I've enjoyed some of the conversations including your thoughts and the more the merrier as they say but, learn that your point of view doesn't deserve to be screamed just because it can be.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:31 pm

William Wallace wrote: You folk claim to be openminded yet try to silence me when I speak. If you disagree with me fine, by all means. However resorting to namecalling and walking away will not gain respect fro me of any kind.

I too am curious as to how exactly you, William, have been "silenced when you speak?" Perhaps if you elaborated we might be able "discuss" productively, rather than just proclaiming I'm with/against WW on this one.

William Wallace wrote: I would prefer that I be left to my own opinion rather than be harried for carrying my own thoughts. This kind of smothering angers me greatly and has caused a rift betwixt myself and others on here.

So I say this: continue to dance in your happy little circle pretending all is well. I have no problem with that. Just don't try to convince me of that too.

Discuss.

Again, William, I think a little explanation might be in order if you actually expect us to "discuss" any of this. At the same time, I don't think you quite realize that just as you have a right to have your opinion on a matter and voice that opinion in whatever manner you feel necessary, others similarly have a right to have an opinion of you and the things you say. So, I guess I'm not exactly sure what "being harried for carrying your own thoughts" is, but if it means that you rather not be critisized or told what we think of your opinions, too bad. That's what people do. That's what "discussions" are. I express a view, you tell me what you think about it, you express a view, someone else tells you what they think about it and so on. When done right, it can actually accomplish wonders. But I'm afraid that when you say things like "continue to dance in your happy little circle pretending all is well. I have no problem with that. Just don't try to convince me of that too." You are essentially asking people to not discuss things with you. "I have my opinion and no one is going to change it so don't even try. Just deal with it!"

So, while everyone here is likely to tell you that you and your opinions are welcome here, (and they are) I think I'd have to say that attitudes which discourage discussions and conversation are undoubtedly not welcome here. So if that's all you have to offer, I'll be the first one to offer you a polite good-bye in return. If you can listen to others however, and truly want others to listen to you, I believe this forum will continue to prove to be a much more tolerant and understanding place than Weebl and Bob's.

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Chris Vogel · Post by **Chris Vogel** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:12 am

Many posts in this thread were relocated to the World’s Longest Thread [LINK] because of their off-topic nature.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:29 am

FloodG8-9595 wrote: there are people who I feel have equally narrow minded views on the opposite side of yours who also frequent this forum.

hmmm . . . I wonder who that could be.

I personally think people tend to overreact to William's flair for the dramatic. Will could say to me, "You need to educate yourself about the issue." or "You are a stupid, idiotic moron." Coming from Will, I would get no more offended by the second statement than I would by the first. After all, he's Will. That's the way he talks. The sentence "You may be right" simply isn't in his vocabulary. I can't change Will, but I can control how I react to him.

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manadren · Post by **manadren** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:17 am

Honestly, I've had Will on ignore for months now, partially because of what has been spoken of here, but also simply because he began to annoy me, and I found no redeeming value in his posts. So to me this really isn't an issue anymore. I have chosen not to listen, so it doesn't matter what he says.

I would like to say this though, it is true that there could be a few grains of truth in will's positions, but it's hard to concede a point when you are being brutally attacked with baseless opinion. Hate cannot cure hate, ignorance cannot cure ignorance. If you want to change someone's mind, you need to spend less time screaming and more time forming solid, logical arguments and information to back them up. Otherwise no one will give any credit to your positions, and you only hurt those who may be making real progress along similar lines.

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:31 am

However resorting to namecalling and walking away will not gain respect fro me of any kind.

Will, you're the only one that has 'walked away' from an arguement in this fashion. Where have you been these last few weeks, anyways?

You folk claim to be openminded yet try to silence me when I speak.

Odd, considering that this is the only forum that you haven't been banned from yet...

I enjoyed reading some of your posts, but recently (thanks to the elections) your militant anti-american attitude has been getting on my nerves (particularly when you spew those American Idiot lyrics so often)

Dunno if you're coming back, but I do like some of your posts, you probably just need to turn the angst knob down 3 notches

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:56 pm

Bookworm wrote:
FloodG8-9595 wrote: there are people who I feel have equally narrow minded views on the opposite side of yours who also frequent this forum.
hmmm . . . I wonder who that could be.

I personally think people tend to overreact to William's flair for the dramatic. Will could say to me, "You need to educate yourself about the issue." or "You are a stupid, idiotic moron." Coming from Will, I would get no more offended by the second statement than I would by the first. After all, he's Will. That's the way he talks. The sentence "You may be right" simply isn't in his vocabulary. I can't change Will, but I can control how I react to him.

You are correct in a sense, here is the issue. Will say's "I want to talk sensibly with everyone on this issue". So we all(or most) say ok and go for it, and it always turns out the way this forum has gotten used to. He acts like he want to be serious, but doesn't put in the effort to act that way, it is very frustrating. Especially when he has much potential. It's the same effect as crying wolf.

I think what it may come down to is that at one time or another, many forum members have felt that Will was a friend, and as a friend you try a little harder find common ground. Yet no effort is made in return. If it was just a normal joe, this wouldn't be that big of a deal, but it's hard let someone who has a good heart and typically trys to do the right thing, to let someone like that slip to that lower level of destructive criticism. Even when we do make the effort to look past all of the past indiscresions, we are left with a beligerent, hateful person who doesn't at all concern themselves with any situation or variable other that their own. So when you see people reacting to Will, it's not so much "why I oughta" as "now why would he think that?", what you may not have picked up on is what we already know about why he thinks X or Y about any given subject from his previous post.

manadren wrote: I would like to say this though, it is true that there could be a few grains of truth in will's positions, but it's hard to concede a point when you are being brutally attacked with baseless opinion. Hate cannot cure hate, ignorance cannot cure ignorance. If you want to change someone's mind, you need to spend less time screaming and more time forming solid, logical arguments and information to back them up. Otherwise no one will give any credit to your positions, and you only hurt those who may be making real progress along similar lines.

And in this case, it's preaching to the choir. We are not a random sample of America society.

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Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:35 am

MrSelf wrote: snip

I shout at people? Well what do you expect, living in the underground of the gaming community for the longest while? My tactfulness was shot off a long time ago in a Counter-Strike game.

If there is one thing you folk should understand it is that Americans put forward a very negative image of themselves to the world. You can barely blame me for being anti-american, what with the fiasco that occured in the voting booths this year. One or two of you jumping around like peas on a hot pan screaming that you did not elect GWB will not change your image, rather by impeaching him America would be redeemed in society's eyes.

Aw, it's Chrimbo. Let's put aside our differences and celebrate this end of year.

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:33 pm

William Wallace wrote:
MrSelf wrote: snip

If there is one thing you folk should understand it is that Americans put forward a very negative image of themselves to the world. You can barely blame me for being anti-american, what with the fiasco that occured in the voting booths this year. One or two of you jumping around like peas on a hot pan screaming that you did not elect GWB will not change your image, rather by impeaching him America would be redeemed in society's eyes.

One or two? 48-49 percent of the voters didn't vote for GWB, it's not just one or two.
If impeachment is an option we can vote on, though, I'll sign that bill

As for 'americans putting forward a negative image of ourselves', I try to think that I, personally, put forth a good image. But seeing as you just admitted that you judge us as a collective mind, like the borg or a beowulf cluster (:lol:), I suppose it's moot to argue about anyone's personal image. Guess I'm just some redneck, SUV driving, warhawk republican

Aw, it's Chrimbo. Let's put aside our differences and celebrate this end of year.

I don't know what Chrimbo is, but it sounds fun!

Will, where were you the last few weeks, anywhoo?

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:52 pm

Happy Chrismahanukwanzakah!?!

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:06 pm

No, that can't be chrimbo, doesn't have a B or an O in it...

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:15 pm

It may not be chrimbo, but it's true!

(I think it's jesus-sized shrimp)

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:25 pm

BEHOLD.... GOD'S SON'S SHRIMP PLATTER... THE CHRIMBO!

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:47 pm

sintekk wrote: BEHOLD.... GOD'S SON'S SHRIMP PLATTER... THE CHRIMBO!

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:51 pm

But seeing as you just admitted that you judge us as a collective mind, like the borg or a beowulf cluster

Resistance is futile?

I think that people deserve to be judged on individual merit as I have stated numerous times in the past mostley in infectuous tirads of frustration that have spread in threads such as these.... but, as has been said

A new year shall soon dawn and (insert poetic ending)

Merry (Insert Holiday)

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FloodG8-9595 · Post by **FloodG8-9595** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:53 pm

Gimme some of those CHRIMBOs and some Christ Chex and I'm set

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Red Squirrel · Post by **Red Squirrel** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:38 pm

Happy Christmas and merry New year!

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Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:21 am

Chrimbo or Crimbo is christmas.

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Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:23 am

sintekk wrote:
William Wallace wrote:
MrSelf wrote: snip

If there is one thing you folk should understand it is that Americans put forward a very negative image of themselves to the world. You can barely blame me for being anti-american, what with the fiasco that occured in the voting booths this year. One or two of you jumping around like peas on a hot pan screaming that you did not elect GWB will not change your image, rather by impeaching him America would be redeemed in society's eyes.

One or two? 48-49 percent of the voters didn't vote for GWB, it's not just one or two.
If impeachment is an option we can vote on, though, I'll sign that bill
As for 'americans putting forward a negative image of ourselves', I try to think that I, personally, put forth a good image. But seeing as you just admitted that you judge us as a collective mind, like the borg or a beowulf cluster (:lol:), I suppose it's moot to argue about anyone's personal image. Guess I'm just some redneck, SUV driving, warhawk republican

I won't be thoroughly satisfied until all of you come to the UK as anonymous people and start a new life for yourselves, then you can create New Usa and my image of you all will be changed.

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Bookworm · Post by **Bookworm** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:10 am

William Wallace wrote: I won't be thoroughly satisfied until all of you come to the UK as anonymous people and start a new life for yourselves, then you can create New Usa and my image of you all will be changed.

But then 51% of us will vote in George Bush as President of New USA.

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Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:48 am

Bookworm wrote:
William Wallace wrote: I won't be thoroughly satisfied until all of you come to the UK as anonymous people and start a new life for yourselves, then you can create New Usa and my image of you all will be changed.

But then 51% of us will vote in George Bush as President of New USA.

Don't worry, as protectorate of New USA Scotland will send in the RAF to shoot down Bush's plane.

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:27 am

William Wallace wrote: I won't be thoroughly satisfied until all of you come to the UK as anonymous people and start a new life for yourselves, then you can create New Usa and my image of you all will be changed.

That could work

But with Red's permission, we could always do something like this...

Now, there's the issue with the gay thing, but once we work that out, all the democrats and canadians can live in harmony

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