Latest on Ukraine

MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:11 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4053753.stm

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:13 pm

Tests show the level of poison in the blood of Ukraine's Viktor Yushchenko is more than 6,000 times higher than normal, an academic has said. Prof Abraham Brouwer at the Free University in Amsterdam, who carried out the tests, said it was the second highest level ever recorded in humans. The presidential candidate, who faces PM Viktor Yanukovych in a repeat poll on 26 December, fell ill in September.

Doctors in Vienna said last week dioxin poison disfigured Mr Yushchenko's face. Blood samples taken last week in the Austrian capital were sent to the Dutch capital, Amsterdam, for further analysis. Mr Brouwer, a professor of environmental toxicology, said the record concentration found in Mr Yushchenko's blood was about 100,000 units per gram of blood fat.

He is hoping to identify the exact form of the poison by the end of the week.

"The labs will... try to find out whether it matches any of the batches of dioxins that are around, so that maybe you can trace it back to where it was ordered or where it came from," he told the Associated Press news agency.

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:24 pm

I heard about this, definately seems like sabotage to me.
We'll have to see how they handle the elections this time around.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:46 pm

Yeah, I think this time will be better since the international community is paying attention this time. Has anyone seen the before and after pictures? I would not want to go through that, and he seems to be taking it well, from the interviews I've heard from him and his wife.

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sintekk · Post by **sintekk** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:53 pm

MrSelf wrote: Yeah, I think this time will be better since the international community is paying attention this time. Has anyone seen the before and after pictures? I would not want to go through that, and he seems to be taking it well, from the interviews I've heard from him and his wife.

He seemed upbeat about it, but with that much poison, will he last long enough to enjoy his winning of the election?

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:58 pm

If he wins, yes. The poison is going away and should leave his body, leaving him in his prior condition.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:00 pm

Yup, pretty mest up.

Man, can you imagine the chaos if Yanukovych wins again? I'd be digging myself a nice little fall out shelter right now if I lived there.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:11 pm

You got that right shenbaw! Nudged between Russia, the Middle East, and a forming EU... yikes! I do hope it turns out well, Ukraine is a neat country I would love to visit sometime, but not if it falls into disarray. Kiev seems very neat.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:20 pm

MrSelf wrote: Tests show the level of poison in the blood of Ukraine's Viktor Yushchenko is more than 6,000 times higher than normal, an academic has said. Prof Abraham Brouwer at the Free University in Amsterdam, who carried out the tests, said it was the second highest level ever recorded in humans. The presidential candidate, who faces PM Viktor Yanukovych in a repeat poll on 26 December, fell ill in September.

Doctors in Vienna said last week dioxin poison disfigured Mr Yushchenko's face. Blood samples taken last week in the Austrian capital were sent to the Dutch capital, Amsterdam, for further analysis. Mr Brouwer, a professor of environmental toxicology, said the record concentration found in Mr Yushchenko's blood was about 100,000 units per gram of blood fat.

He is hoping to identify the exact form of the poison by the end of the week.

"The labs will... try to find out whether it matches any of the batches of dioxins that are around, so that maybe you can trace it back to where it was ordered or where it came from," he told the Associated Press news agency.

Tests have revealed that the chemical used to poison Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko was pure TCDD, the most harmful known dioxin. TCDD is a key ingredient in Agent Orange - a herbicide used by US troops in the Vietnam war and blamed for serious health problems. Mr Yushchenko, who faces PM Viktor Yanukovych in a repeat poll on 26 December, fell ill in September. Scientists say the poison could not have occurred naturally in his blood. Blood samples taken in Vienna, where Mr Yushchenko was treated, were sent to the Dutch capital, Amsterdam, for further analysis.

"It is a single chemical, not a mix," Prof Abraham Brouwer of the Free University in Amsterdam told the Associated Press. "This tells us... there is no way it occurred naturally because it is so pure." He said there were some small signs which could reveal where it was made. Initial tests had shown the level of poison in Mr Yushchenko's blood was more than 6,000 times higher than normal - the second highest level ever recorded in humans.

Blisters

Doctors in Vienna had already said dioxin poison was to blame for Mr Yushchenko's disfigured face but until now the exact chemical was not known. They said there appeared to be little lasting damage to Mr Yushchenko's internal organs, though experts believe it could take more than two years for his skin to return to normal.

Mr Yushchenko first claimed that he had been poisoned in September, when he was admitted to a clinic suffering from stomach pains. It was only slowly that his face began to change and the blisters transformed his previously youthful looks.

Ukraine's parliament is reopening its inquiry into the poisoning claims - the first probe said the presidential contender had had a viral infection and other diseases.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:12 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4127203.stm

Opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko has won the re-run of Ukraine's troubled presidential election by a clear margin, election officials say.
With more than 98% of votes counted, the pro-Western leader is eight points ahead of Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych following Sunday's vote.

International observers from the OSCE monitoring watchdog said the re-run was much fairer than the earlier rounds.

The original vote, won by Mr Yanukovych last month, was annulled due to fraud.

"The Ukrainian people have won," Mr Yushchenko told a jubilant crowd waving orange flags in central Kiev.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:15 pm

All right, I'm kinda talking out of my arse here, but does anyone else feel like we might be on the verge of another cold war here? We're united with Putin in the war against terror, but in the fight for Ukraine we basically consider Moscow to be the evil dictator like Saddam. We have a Moscow backed incumbent supposedly trying to rig elections and poison other candidates in order to stay in power and continue to control the Ukraine and a Western backed opposition leader preaching about freedom and democracy. We have the honorary Collin Powell over here on the other side of the planet proclaiming the invalidness of someone else's election when he could just as well have one of those damn orange scarfs wrapped around his own fat neck. Again, pretty much thinking out loud, but how many cookie jars are we going to get our hands into before we eventually get sick and puke all over ourselves?

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Stasi · Post by **Stasi** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:28 pm

... but in the fight for Ukraine we basically consider Moscow to be the evil dictator like Saddam.

I haven't gotten that impression at all. In fact, I don't see any parallels, neither real nor perceived based on media coverage or first-hand opinions from residents. However, there is growing concern... widespread growing concern about Russia's disappearing freedoms and questionable tactics by the government to consolidate its power.

We have the honorary Collin Powell over here on the other side of the planet proclaiming the invalidness of someone else's election when he could just as well have one of those damn orange scarfs wrapped around his own fat neck.

Just about everybody except Russia believed the first election's results to be invalid. Colin Powell was one voice amongst many others expressing concern at the first election's process.

Again, pretty much thinking out loud, but how many cookie jars are we going to get our hands into before we eventually get sick and puke all over ourselves?

Dunno what you're point you're trying to make with this statement. Do you know anything about Ukrainian politics? The past years under Kuchma have been rife with corruption, as in many ex-Soviet republics. Yanukovych is a Kuchma crony and unlikely to be that much different. Yushchenko is the better of the two choices because he's won the hearts of the progressive minds over there and at least doesn't have a history of corruption. Between the two, if you oppose corruption and desire democratization and a decentralization of authority and control, Yushchenko is the obvious choice.

In the context of eastern European democratization and advancement this is a big deal, which is why it's attracted so much attention. While other ex-Soviet Republics are falling back into totalitarian states or have been since their independence, like Uzbeckistan and Turkmenistan, some are actually trying to move forward. I know a Ukrainian who's been deeply involved with opposition politics for the last 4-5 years and this is a HUGE deal over there.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:22 am

Stasi wrote: I haven't gotten that impression at all. In fact, I don't see any parallels, neither real nor perceived based on media coverage or first-hand opinions from residents. However, there is growing concern... widespread growing concern about Russia's disappearing freedoms and questionable tactics by the government to consolidate its power.

First, I'm not talking about media coverage. I'm talking about how our government looks at the Ukraine and it's politics. Okay, maybe "evil dictator like Saddam" was a bit too harsh, but it seems like we've been awfully concerned with "regime change" in an awfull lot of places lately. No?

Stasi wrote: Just about everybody except Russia believed the first election's results to be invalid. Colin Powell was one voice amongst many others expressing concern at the first election's process.

Yup, just about everyone except the supposed "winner." What if when Kerry had lost, his supporters (almost half the country) would have threatened to riot, held rallies outside the capitol, and came up with countless allegations of fraud. Do you think the rest of the world would have supported them? Maybe. Again, I'm just babbeling, but don't you think it's a little wierd how we have a Western friendly candidate being backed by almost the entire Western world, and all of a sudden we have the ability and knowledge to proclaim someone else's elections as "invalid?"

Stasi wrote: The past years under Kuchma have been rife with corruption, as in many ex-Soviet republics. Yanukovych is a Kuchma crony and unlikely to be that much different. Yushchenko is the better of the two choices because he's won the hearts of the progressive minds over there and at least doesn't have a history of corruption. Between the two, if you oppose corruption and desire democratization and a decentralization of authority and control, Yushchenko is the obvious choice.

Exactly.

You've just taken every single piece of media coverage coming from the U.S. of this topic over the last several months and summarized it in one little paragraph. Yushchenko -> Good Yanukovych -> Bad

Stasi wrote: In the context of eastern European democratization and advancement this is a big deal, which is why it's attracted so much attention. While other ex-Soviet Republics are falling back into totalitarian states or have been since their independence, like Uzbeckistan and Turkmenistan, some are actually trying to move forward. I know a Ukrainian who's been deeply involved with opposition politics for the last 4-5 years and this is a HUGE deal over there.

Okay, two paragraphs.

What really amazes me is how Yanukovych can get such bad press over the last few months, from accusations of being a Moscow-backed dictator to accusations of trying to poison the opposition, and still manage to get almost 45% of the popular vote this time around. Kinda makes you wonder if some of the Ukrainian citizens might know something we in the other hemisphere do not?

It just really seems like lately "moving forward" all too often equates to "having a Pro-American leader in power."

Stasi wrote: ]Dunno what you're point you're trying to make with this statement. Do you know anything about Ukrainian politics?

I've actually been following this stuff fairly closely.

Don't get me wrong Stasi, I'm not saying this is a "bad" thing. All I'm saying is, we've got a war in Afghanistan, a war in Iraq, countless humanitarian missions all over the world, and now we're sticking our nose in other people's elections too? Just seems like sometimes our people in office get a rush or enjoyment out of exerting their power and influence in every possible way. One day we just might stick our nose someplace where it isn't welcomed. Or perhaps we already have?
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

There have been 1,476 coalition troop deaths, 1,326 Americans, 75 Britons, seven Bulgarians, one Dane, two Dutch, two Estonians, one Hungarian, 19 Italians, one Latvian, 16 Poles, one Salvadoran, three Slovaks, 11 Spaniards, two Thai and nine Ukrainians in the war in Iraq as of December 27, 2004.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:06 pm

I gotta agree with Stasi, in fact we really aren't making much of a deal over there at all, we have acted very reserved and waited for others to act not not just immediately point fingers. Rare for the US lately. Only the media coverage here in America has made it seem like America might be sticking our nose where it doesn't belong. We did this one right, Russia hasn't been too involved like they have been in other areas also acting reserved.

It just really seems like lately "moving forward" all too often equates to "having a Pro-American leader in power."

Perhaps unfortunately, in this region it all to often does, because the society over there is ingrained in socialism and capitalism has been deemed the future, which is associated with the West. I'm not saying socialism is bad, but the lack of any capitalism does hurt the people just like capitalism with no checks would, so it's moving from no capitalism(which the entire regain is now running on) to a Pro-western idea of incorporating capitalism.

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:25 pm

Yeah, like I said, I'm just talkin'

I think we're all essentially saying the same thing, we're just disagreeing on why exactly it's taking place.

I was just talking about watching Colin Powell on TV make a public statement saying, "We simply cannot except these elections in Ukraine as valid." And thinking "Did he really need to do that?" I mean, if the elections are invalid and they truly want democracy, aren't they going to realize it and take care of it themselves? Do they really need our help to run their country? Like I said, we've already got Iraq and Afghanistan on our plates, do we really want to bite off more? So what if they don't invalidate the election? What are we going to do? Invade? And like Colin Powell has any actual justification for proclaiming the elections were fraudulent other than what somebody told him. Perhaps some "intellegence agency" told him? In which case, they've led him wrong before.

Or maybe it's just cause he heard in on the news? And we all know that the news in never wrong. Right?

I guess I just hate the way we play school yard bully now days.

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:51 pm

Well I certainly know how you feel with the schoolyard bully comment, I just happen to think we did ok this time. I think the international community works like this, for accountablilty to exist, other nations need to make an effort, otherwise the people often can't fix flawed democracy.

edit: figures, I just found what I was looking for:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4038409.stm

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shenbaw · Post by **shenbaw** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:07 pm

MrSelf wrote: Well I certainly know how you feel with the schoolyard bully comment, I just happen to think we did ok this time. I think the international community works like this, for accountablilty to exist, other nations need to make an effort, otherwise the people often can't fix flawed democracy.

edit: figures, I just found what I was looking for:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4038409.stm

Yeah, I know. And you're right. We did do okay this time. But what if things hadn't worked out the way we thought they should? Are we really prepared to deal with everyone who does things diffently than us with an iron fist? Sure seems that way.

International election monitors say they believe Ukraine's presidential poll was not fully free and fair. The Central Election Commission "displayed a lack of will to conduct a genuine democratic election" is how the main body co-ordinating international monitors put it on the day after the poll.

But just in case...

November 24, 2004 · Secretary of State Colin Powell says the U.S. cannot accept the Ukraine election result as legitimate and called for an investigation. He warned that if there is no investigation, there could be implications for U.S. relations with Ukraine.

I guess all I'm really saying is "Who died and made Colin Powell an international election monitor???"

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MrSelf · Post by **MrSelf** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:06 pm

shenbaw wrote: I guess all I'm really saying is "Who died and made Colin Powell an international election monitor???"

Haha, I don't know, my logic tells me it is something that sec. of state does, but I have never hear of that being part of the job, so you may be right!

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